Profit Without Culture Still Fails

Karen Posey 0:00

You can be profitable, and we've all seen this, and I've seen a lot of companies like this. You're highly profitable, you know, you're meeting your EBITDA, you're meeting your numbers, but you don't have a good culture. You really aren't driving enterprise value. Nobody does anything about it until revenue falters. They try to be all things to all people, and they try to do too much.

Meet The Enterprise Value Architect

Wendy Roop 0:23

Welcome back to Culture is an inside job. So good to see everybody, Karen and Scott. Uh, how are you doing today?

Scott McGohan 0:33

Fantastic. Great to see you, Karen. We've got two Karen's today. So Karen Squared.

Wendy Roop 0:39

Yes, that's what we're gonna call them. Today we have a guest, Karen Posey, is with us today. And so, yeah, maybe we should call y'all Karen Squared. Welcome, Karen.

Karen Posey 0:50

Thank you. Great to be here.

Wendy Roop 0:54

So um just a little bit for uh our listeners today. Um Karen and I met working for an organization together, and then we had some similar friends, some friends that were um similar to us who kind of reconnected us, right? And so when we were thinking about other guests that would be great to have on this podcast, Karen came to mind. And so, Karen, we're so happy to have you. And I would love for you to share. We would love for you to share um just at a high level, right? So I'm gonna read this and then you tell us what it means, okay? So uh Karen Posey is an enterprise value architect who helps CEOs and boards turn innovation into measurable enterprise value. And I also know you do so much more, but like explain to our listeners what does that mean?

Karen Posey 1:46

You know, I'm so glad you asked because when people hear enterprise value, a lot of people, you know, that's that's a common term with PE firms. But outside of that, people go, Oh, that's that's what the CFOs care about, right? That's that's not what you know I need to be thinking about. But I would challenge that in that I really strongly believe CEOs and boards need to be focused on enterprise value. And what that means is that's where strategy, leadership, operating model, as well as capital decisions come together. And they and it's actually, I I love you know, talking about we're gonna talk about culture today, but culture is what reinforces that. You know whether you have a strong culture or not, based on how that's being reinforced.

Wendy Roop 2:35

Absolutely. And when I was um, you know, preparing for our conversation today, um, you know, that was a big piece that, you know, and I had mentioned to you too. It's like I'm just so curious how all of that really leads into culture. But maybe before we get into that, um how did you get to what you are doing today? Maybe just tell us, you know, what your journey has been like and your leadership journey and you know what might be helpful for us to understand about you.

Leadership Journey From Corporate To Startup

Karen Posey 3:06

Yeah, thank you. You know, it's uh I looking back now, and I'm sure we all could say this, and I'm sure your listeners all feel the same way, you know, you're always on a journey and you're not quite sure where the journey is when you're 28 years old. But, you know, I was um the youngest leader ever in the company, a pretty large company that I worked for. And um I, you know, they they it was at a great time where they gave me a lot of excellent leadership training, hiring training. I felt so blessed. And I went on to, you know, um it my my friends, tech colleagues, I should say business colleagues, tended to get me in trouble. They'd like, uh, Karen, send me your resume. I think, you know, you need to be over here. You need to be working for us. And so I'd send my resume. Next thing I know, I'd be in front of a CEO talking to them about their company. And I, you know, transitioned, um, for example, to several companies that way just because my friends kept getting me in trouble. But yeah, it's in all seriousness though, um, very, very blessed to have that kind of leadership training in in the middle, you know, early in my career, and then really reinforce that um kind of midway through my career, um, really worked for a large uh healthcare company and then worked for a management consulting firm where my leadership really took it to the next level where I had to design um, well, I didn't have to. They hired me to design my own practice. And so I did a ton of research on executive sponky programs, uh, interviewed probably uh 20 of the biggest Fortune 500 companies that had them, and then I became the expert, right? And so I would help other companies formulate that. And then yeah, I would say, you know, more recently, I've had my business almost 10 years, and prior to that, I worked for a very large uh healthcare payer and also ran a medtech startup. So it's, you know, I feel very um at looking back, I think all the various um opportunities I had really helped me to be the person I am today and to really work. That's why I'm so passionate about helping CEOs in the mid-market because I know what got them where they are today isn't going to get them to the next level. And so they need a lot of help. And so, yeah, that's kind of led me to wanting to start my business almost 10 years ago. Wow.

Wendy Roop 5:28

I just love, you know, that's one of our fun, the fun things that we get to do is just hearing everybody's journey and and what you know, what brought everybody to the place they are today. Um, Scott and Karen, anything that comes up for you right now? I have, of course, always lots of questions.

Scott McGohan 5:43

No, yeah. I'm just curious

What Startups Teach About Timing

Scott McGohan 5:46

with um obviously coming from a you know large organization, CareSource, and then a startup. Um I'm just really well, obviously, you know, I'm right in the middle of a startup, and I had no idea how hard and mind-numbing and expensive uh that was gonna be. Um, and so maybe in your experience with that startup, maybe maybe kind of unpack the parallels between coming from a large organization, lots of infrastructure, lots of capital, and then an organization that's just flying by the seat of their pants trying to figure it out, right?

Karen Posey 6:26

A hundred percent. Yeah, it's um it's very different. Matter of fact, that's why I feel very fortunate that I um I guess prior to running the MedTech startup myself, I was consulting with, I worked uh with the Entrepreneur Center in Dayton as well as Rev1 and also consulted with a lot of startups first. So I really had a better sense of, okay, what are VC firms looking for? You know, it's all about the management team. You know, yes, your product's important or service, but it's all about the leadership team and what's your total, total addressable market, and there's just other factors that really play into that. But then to your point, Scott, you know, running a medtech, um it takes what I really learned is it takes a lot of capital. The other thing I've learned is, you know, if you're early or late, it's brutal. I mean, that's where most companies die. It's how do you really be the just-in-time player, right? Because being in just in time is so important. Yes, uh, you know, in the med tech world, it takes a lot of capital. I'm not um sure the company you're running, Scott, but it takes a lot of capital in med tech and in the med tech space and also just um, you know, other things you have to think about, like patents and you know, um keeping those updated, and that in and of itself can be a very large financial drain uh to an organization. Um and then yes, people, you know, you are flying by the seat of your pants as you're constantly. Here's the other thing, you know, in a big corporation, they don't move as fast. In a small corporation, you got to pivot a lot. I mean, you know, I I always say, what's the definition of insanity, right? If I'm doing the same thing over and over and we're not getting the results we need, it's time to pivot. And you do have to pivot a lot, and I'm sure you have too.

Scott McGohan 8:16

Yeah, I met with a a a startup, uh the young guy, he's probably in his 40s, third startup. And I said, give me some advice. Like, and he said, Well, there's three things, and you said all three. He said, You have to have a problem and you have to identify with that problem. You have to be uniquely suited to solve that problem. And here's the third one, and you said this your timing has to be impeccable. Impeccable. Because I've seen a lot of companies the worst, the worst timing is to be way too early.

Karen Posey 8:53

Yes, because it's so expensive while you're waiting everybody for everybody to catch up.

Scott McGohan 8:57

Yeah, because I mean you'll figure out if you're late really quick. Um gets really expensive. Um, because uh and you'll get drunk on your idea, like really. Um, so gosh, that's that's fascinating. You know, I'm just looking at your bio like you are, you are you're well, I'm I'm not gonna speak for Wendy and Karen, but um uh you're a lot smarter than I am, I'll tell you that right now.

Karen Posey 9:27

You know, I really I give all the credit to the CEOs and their first teams. I call them the first team, their C-suite that I've worked with for almost 10 years. And and even prior to that, when I worked for the previous management consulting firm and I was working for large Fortune 500s, I just I'm a continuous learner. I like all of us here. That's why you guys are doing this podcast, right? I love to learn, and I've just learned so much from my clients, and I'm so grateful.

The CEO Levers That Shape Culture

Wendy Roop 9:52

Karen, what um help us understand that, help make the link between the work that you do with the CEOs and their first teams, and I love that you call them that, by the way. Um, and the difference that makes for culture, because of course, right? Our podcast is called Culture is an inside job. And so that's what you know, we would love to just hear more about that.

Karen Posey 10:14

Yeah, you know, it's um I'm so passionate about uh I speak a lot about the six things that only a CEO can do. And one of the six is the first team, and the other one is the CEO's own personal effectiveness. And uh let's let's start with the first team. You know, especially um I find this a lot in the mid-market companies that are, let's say they're 20 million and they have aspirations to be, you know, over the next three years, they want to get to 60 million, and and they're so they're on this large trajectory. You know, as I mentioned before, what got them there isn't going to get them to the next level. But, you know, it's they're so used to being in that scot, as we talked about, that startup mode, and they're growing, but what they don't realize is that they tend they meet with their um individual leaders more than they meet as a team. And so what tends to happen, and they don't even know it's happening, is that they turn around and they get to a certain size and they look around and they're like, oh my gosh, to me, a first team is like a family. There's always level of dysfunction. It doesn't matter, you know, how great everybody is, there's always a level of dysfunction. And some of the things that CEOs do just so unintentionally. So, for example, if they're always meeting with the individual members of their first team, but they're not working with the first team themselves to be the star, they're creating silos and they don't even know it. They're not solving the biggest problems that the company has. And that's what the first team should be doing. And if the first team is fortunate enough to be in the same location together, if they're not sitting together, again, you're reinforcing behavior that their functional area is more important than the company itself. And it's not good. So first team's a big one, and then um personal effectiveness. You know, I've seen CEOs, and and this has happened to me too. When I do a lot of speaking, I love to tell stories. And, you know, when I was running um the wound care company, um, I got to a point where I was physically, you know, the CEO, we could talk about this a little bit later, but the CEO job, as Scott, you know, and many people know, is a very lonely job. I mean, um, in my in a lot of my speeches, I I showed the 10 signs of loneliness, and everybody is always like, oh my gosh, I have eight of the 10, you know, because it creeps up. And I just find that, you know, with the loneliness and you really think about personal effectiveness. I've seen CEOs at the height of their personal effectiveness, they make an acquisition. Oh my gosh, their personal effectiveness goes down the toilet. I mean, and it comes back, but it's it's that self-awareness, right? And you know, personal effectiveness really revolves around four things, in my opinion. It's absolutely time and energy, right? Because there's only so much time and energy we have every day. It is their leadership model, what do they stand for? What won't they what won't they tolerate? What do they want their legacy to be, right? It's also their brand, how do they want to emulate their brand? And certainly being humble uh is one of the top that every CEO should have in their brand. We we know that doesn't always happen. Uh, and then the fourth that I am very passionate about is their health and wellness. Um, I think a lot of CEOs and first teams, quite frankly. Um, I just was with family all weekend, and my brother works for a huge Fortune 100 company. And um honestly, they have a very toxic culture. I mean, that there's no boundaries. The CEO, or not the CEO, but his boss, and he's uh senior vice president, was calling them constantly. Um, and you know, it's so I just think CEO having that personal um awareness, their own awareness, but also um having folks that really focus on their health and wellness because everybody does, you do make so many sacrifices. Um, my brother, you know, in his role is making a ton of sacrifices. And and quite frankly, he's put on weight, he's not focused as much on health and wellness and it's showing. And he he recognized that we talked a little bit about that this weekend. So, yeah, those are the four things I think that go into personal effectiveness that really make the difference. And when so when you think about that, let's roll that back to culture. If the CEO isn't effective and they're not giving, you know, let's talk about vision clarity, right? There's not clarity around where we're going, what we're doing, what happens? It affects decision velocity in the organization. Things slow down, decisions aren't being made, you're in the swirl mode, right? Um, there's there's not um, there's that really accountability is lacking, right? So there's a lot of various dynamics that happen in the organization. I think the other thing from a first team standpoint is, you know, all joking aside, yes, there is always a level of dysfunction, but if they're not working together and the CEO isn't really focused on what's the team composition? Do I have the right people in the right seats, right? Um, what's our teamwork practice? Am I really focused on bringing us together to make that team a star so that we are working together and we are we are trumpeting that vision clarity, we are uh aligned on who's accountable for what, how decisions get made, and then also that they have that operating rhythm, right? And looking a year in advance and how are we going to uh work together? What are the key times of the year we're gonna get together and really making time for each other because you know there has to be a level of trust, respect, and openness and candor to be effective. And a lot of organizations say they have that, but as we all know, they don't. And it's it causes a very toxic environment where it gets very political, and so all that affects culture. And then I look at CEOs, and this is again why I love the mid-market, they get to a certain size, and you know, the CEO is like, well, we've got to raise um the uh how much our compensation, you know, you have a compensation review, we need to be paying more. And I love to just start asking them a few questions, and because I usually work hand in glove with um the CEO and their HR, um, the the VP of HR, as well as just the whole leadership team, and and I challenge them a little bit is do we really have to to be um pay the best? Or, you know, is there an opportunity for us to take a step back and really look at the culture? What's a culture we're trying to drive? Especially for new CEOs to come in. You know, what what are you really trying to do? And what's the culture you're trying to drive? Because I'm a firm believer that if you um you don't have to be the the top paying company out there. You you've got to be at market rate, but it's not all about the money for people, it's about the people they work with and the culture. It drives all that.

Wendy Roop 17:21

Yeah, because if you increase the their pay and you haven't done anything about the culture, they're gonna end up either not being effective, right? Staying or leaving anyway.

Karen Posey 17:30

So yes, and that's what's been with one of my clients. That's what's been happening. And because we've had this conversation. Uh I've had it with the CEO and their first team two times now. And they, I think they're finally getting to a point where after they keep hiring this, these great talented people, and they stay about a year and they leave, and their turnover is just it's it's ugly. And we all know the cost of that. It's terrible. Yeah, and they just they can't, they just you know, two steps ahead or one step ahead, three steps behind. That's right. Yeah.

Wendy Roop 18:08

Um Karen, I'm pausing for a second and looking at you. Anything that comes up for you, Karen Benoit.

Core Values That Actually Change Behavior

Wendy Roop 18:16

Karen B.

Karen Benoy Preston 18:17

Yeah, I'm like uh so many questions, so many. Um, I'm I'm like tracking, I'm visualizing all of these experiences that you're sharing, Karen. So thank you first of all for giving us so many great insights. I'm curious the word value. Of course, I have to bring this in.

Wendy Roop 18:33

He's a values expert.

Karen Benoy Preston 18:35

Yeah, like this is this is a place that I see uh two connotations for the same word from for the word values, right? You bring enterprise value and at the same time what you're talking about from a cultural perspective are the company's values.

Karen Posey 18:52

For sure, their core values, right?

Karen Benoy Preston 18:55

And so t tell us more about how, as you are here and supporting this first team, like where do values play a role in how you help them start to walk their talk so that they can really lean in and create the culture that is healthier than than what's happening from the toxic perspective.

Karen Posey 19:14

I am so glad you brought that up. I I am a big um believer in core values, and um we all know, we've seen it. You walk in, companies got their core values on the wall, and nobody knows what they are. And I'm a huge proponent of okay, they don't necessarily have to be on the wall, but are you even in orientation when you hire someone, are you going over the core values? Are you even before that, are you hiring for your core values? Are you firing for your core values? I'm a huge proponent of that. Are you, you know, going over it in orientation? And and this is also the role of the first team and the CEO. This is not just the CEO's job, this is not just the CHRO's job. This is the whole first team's job, is to where are we going? What's our vision clarity? And does everyone in the company, from the most entry-level person up, know that? And do you really understand our values? And are you living those values? And how are you reinforcing those values in the organization? I think so many missed opportunities, especially in the mid-market, is they don't have even, and as simple as this sounds, yearly rewards that reinforce those values. Um they they don't even, you know, have waver. Right. They're not measurable. Right, right.

Karen Benoy Preston 20:33

They measure productivity and profitability, but they're not measuring some of those, you know, what what are those soft skills that are actually, and how do you measure them? Right.

Karen Posey 20:44

You are so right. You are so right.

Wendy Roop 20:51

So another question I have for you, uh, Karen, is so we have, you know, all kinds of listeners who are listening, right? In in every level of leadership, I'm sure. And so for those who are, which I've had the opportunity um, you know, to coach uh leaders who are moving into like a sweep, a C-suite position at times. And so for those people who might be in that position, let's say they're just getting ready to move into um the CEO position. You know, in all of those things that, you know, those things that you mentioned, which I absolutely love, you know, the time and energy, the leadership model, the brand, the health and wellness, um, as you know, it can be very overwhelming moving into a role like that. Where, when it comes to making a real difference for culture and the first team and so forth, where should they begin?

Karen Posey 21:50

That's that's an excellent question. I think first and foremost,

New CEO Reset With Employees And Customers

Karen Posey 21:55

I'm I'm very passionate about um it's one thing to take over the role and someone tells you. What they think you're they're leaving behind. But I think it's another and a wise CEO that takes the time to talk to employees. I'm a big believer in skip and whatnot. And some people don't know what Skip is. So let me let me share that is CEO going a couple levels down, skipping a couple levels to talk to various people in the organization. And just even if they're, I mean, I'm a big proponent of come up with three questions you want to ask everyone and just do some random inspecting what you expect. Get a sense of the pulse of what people think about the company and their work environment and the culture. And I'm also a huge proponent of talking to the customers, your biggest customers, at a decision maker level, not feature function, not user level, but really at a decision maker level. Get that insight and then focus on the six things that only a CEO can do. And I'm happy to share that at some point. I shared two today. But yeah, I think doing that really will help the CEO determine, first of all, when you think of enterprise value, where strategy, operating model, leadership, capital decisions all come together to reinforce each other. By having that insight, it also helps them ultimately drive true outcomes versus just activity. And that's where a lot of CEOs tend to get in trouble is that they focus on um, you know, a lot of activity. But what's really the outcomes that you're driving? And are you truly driving enterprise value? And if you're not, um, and you know, let me clarify too, you can be profitable. And we've all seen this, and I've seen a lot of companies like this, where you're you're highly profitable, you're you're um, you know, you're meeting your EBITDA, you're meeting your numbers, but you don't have a good culture, you you really aren't driving enterprise value. Um, and it nobody know nobody does anything about it until revenue falters. And then it's like, oh boy, okay, what do we have to fix? And then they try to scramble around trying to fix everything. And that's where a lot of organic organizations, I think, get in trouble, is that um they try to be all things to all people and they try to do too much. And decision velocity for me is all about what are the core things that we need to be focused on? Let's get those done, and then we'll move to the next, right? And keeping people focused, I think, is very important. And in and culture plays a huge role in that because people emulate what their leaders do. So if you've got the CEO and the first team doing that, I think you're already setting yourself up for success. I think in larger organizations, it becomes um very challenging because it's usually the frontline leaders that um have the most challenges because they just don't get the support from above. And we've all seen that.

Wendy Roop 25:03

Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Were you gonna ask a question, Karen?

Karen Benoy Preston 25:08

No, I was just recognizing that. So the disconnect there. Yeah.

Wendy Roop 25:11

Yeah, yeah. And then I think it's just as important, right? Like that first team, a huge part of what they're doing, of course, is helping the CEO to be successful and the organization. I mean, vice versa, right? But uh, you know, for those listening that are on that on the first team, you know, of a CEO, um, how can they best support their CEO?

How The First Team Supports CEO

Karen Posey 25:36

Yeah, great question. I'm a huge proponent of focusing on the things that only they can do. So, as I mentioned, there's six things that only a CEO can do, right? I also coach the first team members, focus on the things that only you can do. So when you think of your functional team, so let's take um CFO, right? Um, okay, there are certain things that only you can do, but if you you know you should have a pretty good size or decent team, what are you delegating to your team to get done? And what are the things that only they can do? And really focusing on that and keeping people focused on that is vitally important because that's the best way that you can help the CEO. I'm a firm believer that if the when the first team gets together, if you really want to make them be the star, then there are goals that they as a first team have to accomplish, whether no matter what your position is, BP of sales, BP of you know, um HR, whatever it is, you're all in the boat together and you rise and fall based on that. And I have a lot of people ask me all the time, but how does that work? So as maybe a silly example, but I just see so many VPs of sales or you know, chief revenue officers getting beat up because they don't have the sales. Well, if you take a step back, in a lot of organizations, we know there's no silver bullet. It could be product issues, it could be customer experience issues, right? A lot of things impact why or why not? And sometimes it's the individual and the leadership. Um, that's true, but I think making it a first team's responsibility that we're all rowing in the same direction, trying to fix the biggest problems of the company is the best way. If you're um a first team member listening to this call, that's the best way you can help your CEO. That and I would say, get with your CEO and say, all right, um, we're only meeting once a month. And when we meet, you're just um, you know, you're just having us check what we've done. Can we take a step back and really let's let's talk about where we want to be, our strategic intent over the next three years? And what specifically do you need from me to make that happen? That's the other thing I think that would help a lot of your listeners because the other thing I see a lot is that the CEO sometimes thinks they're being very clear on expectations, but they're not. They're moving so quickly, they're not sitting down because this takes time, right? This is, you know, this is not the fun stuff. But the CEO doesn't take the time to sit down with each member of the first team and say, this is your goals. This is what I expect of you this year. And the bigger you get, I'm all about um building documents that help align. Um, I call them line of sight, line of sights, where they be basically take the overall goals for the company, and the CEO gives them just maybe three top goals, but then they with they work with their functional area and say what is everyone on in their team gonna do to align to where we need to be this year, but also to meet our three-year goal, our strategic intent for the next three years. And the bigger you get, those documents become critical because it's so easy, it's kind of like you know, puppies in a box. It's easy for a puppy to jump out of the box. You gotta keep those puppies on the box. It's I mean, alignment's huge. So I just find if if those on the line, get that clarity. If you don't have it, get it, and and make sure you're finding out how you can sport the organization. The other thing is if you have aspirations for even bigger and better things in the mid-market, this is really also true. Um, you know, there's we're we're gonna be, if you look five, 10 years ahead, there's a leadership crisis looming, right? A lot of people are retiring. And in the mid-market, it's I find there's a lot of challenges of, well, we can't afford official leadership training, so what can we do? Well, if you know you're a top performer, ask for stretch assignments, ask for opportunities that can give you more exposure to more things. Um, I would even say, you know, look for whether they're nonprofit or for-profit boards, get get outside your walls and get broader perspective so that you can not only add more value to your own company, but that you can long-term add that more value to yourself so that um you're prepared for that next step, whatever that may look like.

Wendy Roop 30:26

Great advice.

Karen Benoy Preston 30:27

I have a question, Karen.

Disruption Demands Focus And Listening

Karen Benoy Preston 30:29

Sure. Disruption seems to be um, you know, I've been talking a lot about this with my clients lately, and that is we the the space between disruption seems shorter and shorter and shorter. How are you how what are you seeing as um ways to support that first team that are struggling so much with so much disruption?

Karen Posey 30:55

Yeah, and when you say disruption, I mean I know what disruption means, but are you talking about the company constantly trying to transform and um or what what disruption are you seeing?

Karen Benoy Preston 31:05

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say there's a lot of external disruption as well, then they're responding to that. And yeah, so really probably adapting to all of these external forces that are causing them to create, you know, change management as we know it.

Karen Posey 31:23

Yeah, uh this is where I really think, you know, focus is critical. I I think really being in touch with your the Praetor principal, your biggest clients at a decision maker level is critical. I see so many companies pivot and make changes, either because their number one account said, Here, we want to see you here and we want you to do this, or they get a lot of feedback from users that want them to do something. And I'll give you a great example. I'll never forget this. When I work for a previous management consulting firm, I was working for um one of my clients was one of the biggest um generic uh pharmaceutical companies in the world, and they're like Fortune 50. And we had um, and depending on your size, I'm a big proponent of customer advisory councils. Well, they had a customer advisory council. My client, who's a president of division, walked in and he said, Okay, Karen, we were planning this for months. We got his biggest clients at a decision maker level for a whole day session. In 90 minutes of that session, he said, Hey, listen, let's carve out 90 minutes. There's this new product we want to roll out. And I said, Okay, um, I'm gonna let you introduce it for 20 minutes and then give me the rest of time to do a deep dive. With there were um 14 clients, his biggest clients in the room. And he said, Okay, we got done with he presented it, we got done with that session. The client, the the the be back, and his whole leadership was team was there. They said that the decision from the clients were we would never buy this from you, we don't see you in this space. Company um A and B are have always been number one and number two. At the end of the day, the session ended. He came up and he hugged me and he said, You saved me five million dollars in upfront cost and 25 million over the lifetime of this product. And I say that to you because it still holds true today. There's a lot of noise out there, there's always gonna be a lot of noise, but now, more than ever, there's just an incredible amount of noise. And I'm a huge proponent, and actually, one of the other key pieces of the six things only a CEO can do is engaging stakeholders. And stakeholders can be your customers, your employees, your partners, right? You've got to have a pulse, a real pulse on what's going on, otherwise, it's the flavor of the week or the month, and um you get um you get fatigued. I mean, the leadership team gets absolutely fatigued. You've got to have a good sense of that. And advisory councils are a great way to do it. Now they're a lot of work. So you can't be, excuse me, you've got to really say you're gonna do it and stay with it and have at least two meetings in person, you know, each year, and usually uh touch base on a poorly basis, even if it's a you know a 60-minute conference call. But yeah, it's it's a lot of work, but that's one way to do it. There's other ways to get that insight, but it's important. And I think that helps with, and you certainly have to have your market intelligence, of course, but that helps from the constant noise. Because the customers aren't going to buy it from you at a decision maker level. Why would you want to do it anyway? Here's the other thing I would tell you is that from a strategy standpoint, um, I've been doing strategy for a long time, and I um I turn down a couple engagements every year because candidly, what they're really looking for is someone to facilitate their one-day leadership offsite where they pick a number and we're gonna grow 20% next year. And they all sit around the table and they go, Okay, Bill, what are you gonna do? All right, Mary, what's your you know? It's like, really? That's all strategic planning. You know, you've got to have that market insight, market intelligence. You've got to have, I call it the market collective, right? It if you take a Venn diagram on the top of the VIN is the market collective, all that insight from stakeholders, partners, customers, employees, that insight. And then you look at your core competencies, and then the other um circle on the VIN is your business model, and you start mapping it out. And so it you start looking at one end and you look at if you've got if the market collective is telling you to do something and you've got the core competencies, but you don't have the meta uh the business model, then maybe what do you need to acquire, right? If they're telling you to go in a different direction, but you got the core competencies, or you've got the business model, but you don't have the core competencies, maybe that's where you partner, right? And then you map it all out and say, okay, what's truly our sweet spot? What do we need to acquire? What do we need to partner? And then here's the big one. Nobody likes to hear this, but what do we need to stop doing? Right? Because I firmly believe this plays a huge role in in everything that goes on in the organization and it impacts culture in a big way, a big way. Because otherwise, you know, people just are fatigued. They are mentally and physically exhausted because it's just like, nope, we're going here. Nope, we're changing our mind. Nope, nope, nope, nope. And when you're, you know, when you're a 7,500 million dollar company, 250 million. I mean, I've seen 250 million dollar organizations were doing that. And I'm like, okay, there's some things I'd like us to think about. And really just trying to change their point of view because it was killing them. I think I mean it's these are silent killers that all of a sudden you wake up and you can't figure out why you're not growing and people are leaving, and you just gotta you got a big mess on your hands.

Wendy Roop 37:00

That's so good. Scott, I've

Boards And The Six CEO Responsibilities

Wendy Roop 37:03

been watching your facial expressions. What comes up for you?

Scott McGohan 37:06

No, I'm you know, I'm I'm thinking about, you know, Karen, like you sit on a lot of boards. And uh, you know, uh I've learned more sitting on boards than I learned um being the CEO of McGowan Brave Ender. So if you're a if you're a leader out there, you get an opportunity to sit on a board, sit on a board for a couple of reasons. Number one, you will give advice to people that you will never take, but you should take. Uh and then you will begin to understand um things at a completely different level. And I Karen, the question for you is is it is it more interesting and more fun to to give that advice and watch those things transpire and come to fruition, or was it more fun inside of your role doing that you and your team? So inside of, does that make sense?

Karen Posey 38:10

It makes total sense. And honestly, I you know, I would say it's based on where I've been in my career. So when I had leadership, pretty good size leadership um responsibility, uh, you know, and I had pretty big teams, I love that. I loved leading. I I love, I just love, love, loved my teams to this day. I still have people that worked for me 30 years ago will call me for advice and whatnot. And I I love that. Um, I I because I just um I wanted, I was very focused on seeing them grow and whatnot, and that meant the world to me. But you know, I think you you reach different phases of your life, and I'm at a phase now where honestly, I um I want to help companies more, you know, I want to help companies and boards really, really reach that true enterprise value. And that means a lot to me. So as a board member, um yes, I've been on a lot of nonprofits, and I'm on a for-profit board and obviously um focused on some other uh for-profit boards right now, um, getting on a couple additional ones, but it's it's all about being that high-impact board member. And they always we always say um nose in, hands off, right? And how do you really um get the CEO focused as a board member? And there's there's ways you do it through coaching um your your board peers on do we have an agenda? Um, if you know, let's not send out a hundred-page board packet. God, we all know we've got a lot of companies out there doing that. It's crazy. So I've had to influence them and say, hey, let's, you know, let's decide what we're gonna do. Let's let's develop a context document so you can you send it out ahead of time. It's like a two-page document that outlines the key, what are the key decisions you want this board to make, right? And then let's set everybody up for success. And then the other thing, of course, now at the age of AI, um, do a little coaching on, okay, uh, as board members, let's make sure we don't dump the hundred-page board packages because you want to save time out on, you know, the you know, on chat GBT or whatever. Um, so but that's another subject for another day. AI is certainly adding lots of complexity all over the place. But no, but it's your question. I I'm really I've loved every phase um of my career. And I guess I'm just at a point now I want to really see enterprise value is so important to me. Um I'm working really hard uh to be that first call board member and that um that high impact board member that really drives that enterprise value for that company. And I I'm not afraid to in a in a great my you know nice polite way, but I want my opinions known if I think the company's not if the company's going down a bad bad path, right? I mean, that's my job.

Scott McGohan 41:09

Yeah, I bet you're an amazing board member.

Karen Posey 41:11

Oh, you're so kind, thank you.

Scott McGohan 41:13

Yeah, I bet you are. There's no question about it. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I was on a board of a uh of a company and there was a guy from private equity on the board. Great guy. Oh, yeah. There's nothing wrong with private equity. There's nothing wrong with that. No, not at all.

Karen Posey 41:26

It's just a different thought process, right? They just think differently.

Scott McGohan 41:29

And I was like, hey, if you don't, if you don't do what we're telling you, you're gonna work for this guy. And she said, I don't like that guy, and I don't want to work for him. I'm like, then you better do what we're telling you to do. Because they're gonna come in and they're gonna do it, and you're not gonna like it at all. Um, but uh, so if you're listening, and like Claymantill always said, um, if he owned a lemonade stand, he would have a board of advisors. And uh, if you're close to Dayton, Ohio, certainly lean into Aileron. So you will learn so much. Yeah. Especially if you have a humble spirit about you'll learn a ton about yourself and about your business and about other people.

Karen Posey 42:15

That's so true. And by the way, that is one of additionally, one of the six things that only a CEO can do. So we've now talked about four of the six today.

Wendy Roop 42:23

Might as well tell us the other two.

Karen Posey 42:27

All right, so we've talked about um well, we didn't really talk about, we talked a little bit about vision clarity, personal effectiveness, um, the first team, um, engaging stakeholders. The one we haven't talked about is strategic organizational alignment. And that's where ding ding ding, strategy, culture, and organizational design come together. And then the last is engaging your board. And I think, you know, kind of closing off on the whole board thing, that's um most CEOs I start working with, especially new CEOs, they have no idea the board takes this much. I mean, it's 25% of their time, and they're they don't, and you can tell the CEOs that lean in and that don't, they want to just want a check mark, and that's a recipe for disaster. But anyway.

Scott McGohan 43:14

Yeah, the more but I would put together these board packets. And and our board, they were so good at sniffing what I did not want to talk about.

Karen Posey 43:26

It is, it's all about asking the right questions, right?

Scott McGohan 43:30

So they were so good at sniffing it out. I was like, oh my, like, how do you know? How do you know? So finally, after about, I don't know, maybe after about a year and a half, um, it was just like, hey, let's just call a spade a spade and let's just bring the obvious out to the out out into the room. And it became uh it they were I mean, I mean, we we had board members for 10 years, which was too old. But they were so they were just absolutely amazing, amazing human beings. Wendy knew them. They were just Really good friends and really good stewards and just good coaches and they were they were terrific.

Karen Posey 44:07

Yeah. Awesome.

Wendy Roop 44:09

Um, okay, so I'm gonna start wrapping us up here. Um Karen, I just have to say, like, as I'm looking at all these the all of my notes, I'm like, okay, there's just so there's so many more things I want to talk to you about, but I'm gonna take a little bit of a turn here.

Karen Posey 44:25

Okay.

Purpose Energy And Intentional Living

Wendy Roop 44:26

Because there's some information when I was looking at your website and so forth, there are just a couple things that I saw that really spoke to my heart. And so, um, and so I just want to bring this up with you for you. And then I want you, I think ultimately I just want to know what comes up for you and your heart when I read this back to you, especially when it comes to again, like like why does it matter? Um and part of this is, you know, you brought up, you know, people are fatigued and mentally and physically exhausted and all these things. And so I I I read at 38. Um I don't know if I could do this without crying. Oh my gosh. Who okay, but everybody on here knows I'm an emotional person, so it's okay. At 38, um, when my parents were diagnosed with cancer within six months of each other, I made a defining decision to change the trajectory of my family's future. That moment clarified my commitment, intentional living, transformation, and building what truly lasts both personally and professionally. And then I read a couple of other things. You say, I believe that the mountains and the yoga mat are more than just personal passions. They embody the essence of balance, focus, and tranquility that I aim to infuse into every aspect of my life. And just as the peaks and poses keep me grounded, I channel that same devotion into working with visionary CEOs who are shaping the business landscape. So first of all, the reason I wanted to bring that up is because uh you have so much experience, right? And you're so business oriented and so forth. But what I want our listeners to hear is there is a whole nother side to that to allow you to keep going in that, right? So you're not fatigued and mentally and physically exhausted. And I have a feeling you also bring that to those that you work with. And I heard you say that, right? Because anyway, you know. So just after I read that back to you, why is that important to you? And and what do you want the listeners to hear about that?

Karen Posey 46:49

It's so kind and so thoughtful for you to do that research. Um, I'm so impressed. Not that I wasn't already impressed with you, Wendy, but this isn't anything. Um, you know, I guess what I would want people to take away from that is that, you know, uh, for example, I'm already at the fourth quarter of my life. We only have so much time here, but what are you gonna spend it doing? And you know, over the last 18 months, I've really focused on what gives me energy and what depletes my energy. And um I I speak a lot about to women's groups about intentional presence too, and we get into all this stuff, but um because I think women have a harder time with this than men, uh, not to not to be sexist here, but uh I really do think um women do have a hard time saying no. But I I think that we do only have so much time, and it's not that you want to be selfish, I'm not saying that for a second, it's really find your passions. What gives you purpose? You know, understand what drives your purpose. So I'm on 85, and I will tell you she's kind of lost her purpose. She had a mini stroke about a year ago, and I've really been, you know, she's she's a painter, she's actually very good. And I've been really encouraging her to get back to that. But I say all that because I just think from a listener standpoint, whether you're in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, what's your purpose? You know, what really gives you energy, what depletes your energy? And yes, you're doing a job, but are you doing a job or are you making it the best job possible? I just feel like um even in the best of cultures, there's just um times where people just show up and they're not really making an impact. And I think it's such a missed opportunity because if you really lean in, and there's gonna be a lot of challenges. I've certainly had my challenges in my career. Uh, it's not all rosy, but every one of those challenges have has made me a better person, has made me more uh thoughtful and caring, and it's really made me who I am today. And so that's what I want your listeners just to think about is don't just kind of go through life because you only have one life to live. Make it meaningful and really think about what's that legacy you want to lead, whether it's to your kids, your family, your friends, your colleagues. I I just I don't know. That's just how I live my life. And so, yes, yoga is very important to me. Diet and exercise is extremely important to me. Um, yeah, it's um I I just I guess I'm I'm very intentional. I guess that's the word. I'm very intentional in everything I do.

Wendy Roop 49:37

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's that's perfect because you know, we we always ask at the end of our podcast, like, okay, listeners, let's go inside. Like, what are you walking away? You know, what we pose a question to them, and I think that is a great way, you know, to end that. Um, Scott and Karen, anything else to add or to No, just this is great.

Karen Benoy Preston 49:59

Thank you, Karen.

Scott McGohan 50:00

No, I think it's a really just a Wendy, thanks for bringing that up. Karen, you just have so much energy, and you like it, you know, and Wendy bringing that up um helped help me understand like just the balance in your life and the and the and the kind of the beauty that you bring to others. Um and hopefully um other people will begin to understand that the fact that I think you get your energy from that.

Karen Posey 50:31

I do.

Scott McGohan 50:32

That's where your energy comes from. Uh and then the folks that you coach and you lead uh that you're leaving, uh you're creating ripples in other people's lives and you're and you're changing those lives. Just not maybe just enterprise value, but also the value inside of souls of people and families, and and and uh so Wendy, thank you, uh, thank you for bringing that up. So all of those other things are important, but the the souls and the lives of of others, that's where we put the big dent in this earth.

Karen Posey 51:05

Yeah, thank you. Yes, that's why I don't drink coffee. I already have enough energy. I have I stick with tea, you know. I don't need more caffeine.

Where To Find Resources And Closing

Wendy Roop 51:13

Me too, Karen. Oh gosh. Um okay, so Karen, where can our listeners find you? And right, there's the like you said, and I feel like this is a resource maybe on your website, but you know, six things only a CEO can do. But then also I also saw that personal effectiveness checklist that was pretty cool too.

Karen Posey 51:35

Yeah, so I've got a personal effectiveness checklist for CEOs. I've got a CEO assessment based on the six things that only you can do that can give them a sense of, you know, how how how well are they doing. Um, and then I also have um some there's some other things out there. Um, if you know, if you're a first team member and you have aspirations to be a CEO, or if there's a CEO listening, I also have a weekly uh the corner office newsletter where I talk about a lot of things I've got. I just moved it to LinkedIn because I'm just a firm believer people don't need one more email anymore. So I just moved it to LinkedIn. There, you're welcome to to um LinkedIn with me. Would love to have you uh on you know the CEO Corner Office with me. And um, you know, happy to support anyone at any time. But yeah, that's that's really and you can get a hold of me on LinkedIn, of course, or on my website. Um you can get a hold of it.

Wendy Roop 52:28

Your website is just go ahead.

Karen Posey 52:32

KPstrategies.net. Yeah, www.kpstrategies.net. Yeah.

Wendy Roop 52:36

Perfect. Well, we'll have that in the show notes too, but we wanted to make sure that you could call that out. And so thank you again for being here and sharing with us. And you have uh been wonderful. And um with that, we hope that everybody enjoys this and just takes away uh what you're meant to take away. And we will see you all next time. Thank you so much, guys. Great to be with you today.

Scott McGohan 53:03

Yes. Have a great day.