The Honesty Question That Opens Doors

Joe Morgan 0:00

If the world were not the place that you currently live, and you could, in fact, be truly honest about what you're thinking and how you might approach things, what is it that you would say? What is it that you might do? Take a deep breath. It's not about how fast or how far, it's about truly being engaged in that experience with the other person.

Meet Joe Morgan And His Work

Wendy Roop 0:23

Welcome back to Culture is an inside job, everybody. Today we have an amazing guest that's joining us, but I am going to let Scott make that introduction because he knows him well. So, Scott, I'm going to turn it over to you.

Scott McGohan 0:37

Well, thanks everyone. Karen, Wendy, Joe, thanks for being with us. We really appreciate it. Uh, Joe is um, and he he's he's he's not gonna like this because he's a pretty humble guy, but he is uh he's an epic leader uh and made a huge dent in our community in Dayton, Ohio. Uh and um let me just give him just kind of uh the um the explanation he uh he deserves. Uh so he believes that when you relentlessly focus on building the right environment for people, extraordinary outcomes follow. Uh he's a proud kid from Worcester. Are you a Patriots fan, by the way, Joe?

Joe Morgan 1:14

Yeah, can we not talk about that?

Scott McGohan 1:16

Yeah, I thought about that.

Joe Morgan 1:18

Actually, I have to correct. Can I sorry to you? Yeah, so I'm from it's Worcester.

Scott McGohan 1:22

Worcester.

Joe Morgan 1:23

Worcester. Not not like Worcester, Ohio, but Worcester. Worcester. Yeah, because we you know, growing up, there's a lot of things about Worcester that are great, but there's some things that aren't so great.

Scott McGohan 1:33

So we love proper pronunciation of Yeah, you know why because Beth Farron is from Worcester, Ohio, and she has to correct people all the time.

Joe Morgan 1:44

Yeah. So sorry to start out that way, but it's it's intended to be humorous.

Scott McGohan 1:49

Hey, you know, an annunciation is important, right? Yeah, exactly. And and and it matters, so it's not like Worcester sauce, right?

Joe Morgan 1:57

Correct. It's spelled the same without the shear. No shear at the end, but yeah, it's kind of the same.

Karen Benoy Preston 2:03

But but isn't that the same way you pronounce Worcestershire? Like we don't say Worcestershire, right?

Joe Morgan 2:09

Correct.

Karen Benoy Preston 2:10

So it's Worcestershire.

Joe Morgan 2:14

I love it.

Karen Benoy Preston 2:15

Um I can tell I'm from Jersey, so I gotta go. Yeah.

Joe Morgan 2:20

Since you said this is organic, I you know a lot of guys when they go pick up takeout food, one of the greatest things is you go like 10 minutes early and you have a beer, and then you sit with other guys at the bar and you talk. Well, I did that yesterday at the pick before the Patriots game, and the guy next to me, he asked me what team are you for? And I said, I'm from the Pat for the Pats because I'm from outside of Boston. He said, Yeah, you know, I'm mixed on this because my mother-in-law, who I was just with, is from Worcester, Massachusetts. I'm like, no way. Are you kidding me? So it's everywhere. Worcester is everywhere. That's right. Everywhere. So thank you. Sorry, Scott, you opened a can of worms there.

Scott McGohan 2:58

No, but I'm glad I'm glad I was corrected. So Worcester, Worcester. Yes, Worcester. Worcester, Maine. Worcester. Okay, Worcester Mass.

Joe Morgan 3:08

Okay.

Scott McGohan 3:08

Main.

Joe Morgan 3:09

Worcester mass.

Scott McGohan 3:10

Okay, so it's mass. So completely right. Let's go let's completely change the subject here. No kidding. So he is he is a Sox fan, which is awesome. He has the uh the the uh uh F3 he refers to as faith, uh his uh family and friends. Uh over his career, he served as CEO and board member for both large public companies, dynamic startups, and demonstrated an improvement ability to lead complex transmissional business environments. Uh he has held roles uh at large organizations such as Standard Register here in Dayton, Ohio, Sony Chemical Corporation, Paragon. Today Joe serves as the executive advisory board for Nextface. He's a board member for Paragon, Lion Group, Omnisys, Heapy Engineering, JBN Envelope, and Mary Queen Angels uh Elder Care. You have an MBA from Clark University from Worcester. How's that?

Joe Morgan 4:13

Got it. That's great. Okay, here we go.

Scott McGohan 4:15

And Bachelor of Science, uh, Bachelor of Arts uh from uh the college at uh Holy Cross. So he's a great writer, so you got to check out his uh Pebble in the Pond weekly blog. He also has a really, really cool platform called Dialogue Miles where he walks with somebody, he talks with them, and it's it's really a deep and compelling uh journey. Although he had me on and and I've never seen it, so it wasn't it probably wasn't a very good walk. So it's it's it's it's in the backdrows. But ladies and gentlemen, welcome Joe Morgan. So great to have you.

Joe Morgan 4:49

Glad to have you, glad to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this. It's great, good stuff. And I am um recovering quickly because I'm reflecting back on all the wonderful successes the Pats did have. So I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. It took me a few hours, but I'm okay now.

Scott McGohan 5:06

Yeah, I mean, it w honestly, I mean, for the the last where they where they came from last 36 months, it's it's it's pretty incredible.

Joe Morgan 5:15

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. And uh it turns out Vrabel lives here in Nashville. Uh there was a great story in the Boston Globe yesterday about him hanging out with his buddies at the corner pub. So not that I'm doing a commercial for the corner pub, but I am gonna go there and see if he does, in fact, hang out there.

Scott McGohan 5:30

Oh, that's cool.

Joe Morgan 5:31

So yeah, it's cool.

Karen Benoy Preston 5:33

Well, and Drake May's from Carolina. So being that I'm from North Carolina and a huge Torino fan, I had somewhat of an interest in watching him do well.

Joe Morgan 5:44

Yeah, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law are are big, they live in Chapel Hill, so they're big, big target film. I welcomed them to Patriots Nation yesterday in advance of the game, so they're now part of that. Yes, well, it's taking full accountability for his success.

Karen Benoy Preston 5:59

And they were coming off of an amazing win from Saturday night beating Duke, which I'm sure you heard about, right?

Joe Morgan 6:05

I did. I did hear about that, yeah, exactly. That's always something that they thrive for each year.

Karen Benoy Preston 6:12

That's right. Yes. So anyway, on on to some other more important things out of the sports.

The Communication Gap In Hybrid Work

Scott McGohan 6:19

Well, I think Joe, you know, like one is you know, you've seen a lot of organizations and you see a lot of people. Uh and you've been deep in the droves of a lot of organizations. And when you think about what what you what you see today, what you hear today, um what what do you think is the biggest gap that that you think needs to be filled today inside of organizations?

Joe Morgan 6:44

You know, yeah, I was having a dialogue about this with a few of my friends uh last week, actually. And I don't know, I think I think the the attempts at communication by leaders today have to take into consideration things that maybe I didn't have to. Um, meaning that people are dispersed and in some cases by themselves. So it's hard to react to something you're being told that might be complicated or new information or maybe even clarifying information, because there's really no one next to you in many cases to share that with. So I think that's a big thing that I that I see. I also think that because of the dynamics of the world we're in right now, it's you know, people say we're polar opposite. I I actually think more people sit in the middle than they do on the fringes, but they don't know how to talk about the middle. And so they only know how to refer to the to the edges. So the middle conversations become somewhat challenging because if you're in the middle, you um it's sort of like going to one of those restaurants that has a thousand things on the menu. That's kind of what you get in politics, right? You get all the policies on the other side. You can't just pick the one thing you're interested in, you kind of get it all. You get like a poo-poo platter if if you refer to what I used to go to when I was a kid. And so I think when we as leaders are talking about some things that are on our mind, if they disagree with either of the other sides, suddenly the entire agenda gets brought up as if you're one or the other. And I think that has paralyzed a lot of really great leaders that I know because they don't know how to actually enter the conversation without being criticized from either side. And I find that to be really a disappointing circumstance that we're in right now. And so I think about that all the time, all the time, because I feel as though I have a platform, I have a responsibility, and it's not okay to not be kind. It's just not okay.

Karen Benoy Preston 8:46

Right.

Joe Morgan 8:47

Um, I don't care what you stand for, it's just not okay to not be kind. I was brought up by teachers, I grew up Irish Catholic, regardless of what my faith might or might not be. I was brought up with kindness. So anything that's not that bothers me. And so I don't want to be silent about it. But I see increasingly people are really hard have a hard time with that. This isn't, and I and I'm careful not to make this a political discussion, but I do think it's a global issue. And I travel all around the world, so I can see I see this happening in many places. So I think if we could enable the middle voice, that would be amazing because I think that's where the majority of the people sit. So anyway, that's a big thing for me.

Wendy Roop 9:28

Oh my gosh. I love that, and I could tell we we all connected on that, and it's so true, Joe. I love how you described it that way because I've really been struggling with that lately on a lot of fronts, of course, political, but you know, on a lot of fronts. And and you're so right. I mean, I think that everything that we do for all of us that are on this podcast together right now truly helped people to empower them to be able to do that, right? By holding a safe space for so um and Scott, if you have something else, but I'm like all fired up now.

Scott McGohan 10:04

No, but I do Wendy, I think it's I know it's fascinating too, because I I think inside of that, what you're talking about, Joe, is there's so much fear.

Wendy Roop 10:15

Yeah.

Scott McGohan 10:16

There's just so much fear, and and and you know, and I think Mark Twain said ignorance is not the absence of information, it's the perception you have it. So we live in this world full of sound bites, and that's all the information we have. So we use that as artillery. And then the in my opinion, the the the people that have the most to say and have the deepest hearts will just they're just silent. Yes, they'll just stay quiet out of that. And it's and it's and it's it's a real shame.

Wendy Roop 10:51

How do you help them, Joe?

Making Space For The Middle Voice

Wendy Roop 10:53

I think that's what I'm curious about in your work, right? How do you help because of that fear that Scott was talking about? How do you help people to be able to speak to all of that?

Joe Morgan 11:07

Yeah, it's it it's it's the question that I think about with all of the work that I do because I sit on boards and then I I have an advisory business, so I work with CEOs of companies. And I was actually talking to a guy last week and he said, Joe, it sounds like you're part therapist and part coach, part executive development. And I said, Yeah, I think that if you have the ability to listen to people and you have some degree of curiosity and that you you're a critical thinker, then I think you find your way into a therapeutic situation. I use use it that way instead of a therapist because a therapist gets to clinician, which I'm not. So there's a line that I would never go across. But I think what you can do is help enable people to find what they're actually trying to say and stop the dance. So I do that a lot. It's like, let's stop the dance, let's have the honest conversation. It's okay to not feel great about it. I mean, I'm a terrible dancer. So if I can just dance, literally, then I it I feel you know my vulnerability changes, and then I'm doing something that allows other people to engage. Maybe it's a smile, maybe it's some joy, maybe it's a reflection. That's what I try and do is to get to the honest conversation. Now, once you find it, what do you do with it? But if you start with what do you do with it, and you don't take the time to find out what it is, then it's just it's just this swirl and it's gray. So I try and spend my time on if the world were not the place that you currently live, and you could in fact be truly honest about what you're thinking and how you might approach things, what is it that you would say? What is it that you might do? And I have the ability to do that in my safe space, and then it's a decision what we do with it. Um, Scott mentioned earlier about dialogue miles. I'm often asked, why don't you record and videotape? I'm not gonna do that. I'm sad that I I thought I did post yours. I have to go look, Scott, and find if I because it it should have been. I'm gonna I'm gonna do that because that was an amazing conversation.

Scott McGohan 13:11

I I thought it I thought it might have been one of your worst episodes and it just doesn't show that.

Joe Morgan 13:16

Not at all. No, that that was a complete if that happened and it I'm believing that it did. If you say that, I'm gonna go find it. Because I wrote it. I know I wrote it anyway. Um, I think that um you know that's what I try and get to is what's what's our truth in this moment when we're together, what's our truth? And then I don't record dialogue miles because I don't want to change the dynamic. Like you can tell probably from this conversation, I'm not a person that wakes up every day worried about someone's opinion

Stop The Dance And Tell The Truth

Joe Morgan 13:47

of what I'm about to say. I know someone's gonna have one, and I'll probably have to relate to it or deal with it, but I'm okay with that because I was brought up to be as true as you can be with your viewpoint. So I try and bring that to my clients. I will say some people are really uncomfortable with that. Really, really uncomfortable with saying what they really mean. So then you kind of dance the dance, as I mentioned. Um that's what I try and do in the work.

Karen Benoy Preston 14:14

I love what you're saying, Joan. There's so much amazing alignment here as it relates to culture. I'm curious, gosh, um, there's a thousand questions, but doesn't this have a lot to do with being a strong, active, empathetic listener before having a point of view? Like

Learning Empathy The Hard Way

Karen Benoy Preston 14:36

where like so much of this, what you're saying is yes, and in order to have that comfortable, safe place, yeah, and and allow divergence of thought and critical thinking, like like I feel like we miss the mark on being an empathetic listener. I think that's a skill that leaders really struggle with. What are your thoughts? What do you see in that?

Joe Morgan 15:02

No, I think I'll give you my own personal view on on or experience, I should say, with empathy. So I took a Gallup um behavioral profile thing with I don't know how many questions, but it was a lot. And one of the ones that came out the lat toward the bottom was empathy. I was like, oh my gosh, I thought I was really empathetic. And so I went home and asked my wife, who's my best friend, we've been married for 42 years. And I said, So what do you think, game? And she said, Oh my God, you're not empathetic at all. Like, what? Like, how did we not have this conversation before? And it's like, really? Because I I think I spent an awful lot of time on, and she said, You're very sympathetic and you're a very caring person, but you don't see the world as others do, which is the simplest definition of empathy. So that was probably 35, 40 years ago. So since then, I've been on this journey to become more and more empathetic. So I'm very purposeful to try and sit as best I can on the side of the other person and see the world, which is where dialogue miles is, you know, shoulder to shoulder, in nature, on a street, no, you know, no phones, none of that stuff. And so it's taught me a lot of things. And so I do think you're right, Karen, that the people that don't see the world as others, or at least attempt to see the world as others do, it's awfully difficult to do anything other than try and impose your view on them. And how great of a conversation is that, right? Not that great. So I do think that when you find a way to kind of um see the world as they might. And you want one of the ones things I will say about the virtual world is we we're in people's homes. That never happened in my career. So we see stuff, right? You got a Jets helmet, a golf bag. I mean, you got all sorts of stuff, right? You guys have books on your shelf, whatever that might be. And I think we we're getting a sense of what's important to people if we just dip our toe into that conversation. So I think you're on to something there. I think um that's a big part of what I do.

Skimming Rocks And Coaching Metaphors

Joe Morgan 17:12

Um, the first step in my coaching is skimming rocks. The first thing I do is I literally skim rocks with people, and you learn so, so much about people when you skim rocks.

Wendy Roop 17:24

Ooh, say more. Say more.

Joe Morgan 17:27

Well, think about it. If we should all do this sometime, we should go to a river or ocean or something. And some people just pick up the biggest rock they can find and try and throw it in it. Oh, look at that. Where are you? That's awesome. Are you in Florida?

Karen Benoy Preston 17:42

Carolina Beach.

Joe Morgan 17:43

Oh, you're in Carolina Beach. That's beautiful. I'm going to the ocean next week. Um, I love that's my thing. That's my place. So I think some people do the plop, not very helpful. Some people try and find the flat rock that they can skim. Some people aren't competitive, they're just happy they got to skip. Some people will keep doing it until they beat the last person. So you learn you learn so much about, and it's funny. It's fun, right? It's so much fun. So that's how I get to know someone in it. Conversation flows, and it's it's been really, really great in that regard.

Wendy Roop 18:16

Not to not to go down this rabbit hole, but I'm just curious about this. Like when I was a kid, of course I did that, right? I have two younger brothers and I was doing all the things uh like that. And we love to play outside. And I feel like when I was a kid, I was pretty good at it. Now as an adult, I just did it, Scott, not that long ago at Aileron. We, you know, I don't know, a couple few months ago. Oh my gosh. It was like plop. I was like, what's happened as an adult? But I think there's something to that, right? Like there's an overthinking about it. Um, that's really an attractive.

Joe Morgan 18:51

And you judge and you judged yourself.

Wendy Roop 18:53

Yes. Yes. And I did it when I was a kid.

Joe Morgan 18:56

You have total potential. I believe in you.

Wendy Roop 18:59

Yeah. You can do this. I can't do that. No, seriously, it's it's so much fun. Rock skipper.

Joe Morgan 19:04

But it but it's it's it is a really cool metaphor of life, too, right? If you pick the wrong materials and you're trying to have the maximum outcome, you're probably going to fall short. And then when you fall short, what do you do? Do you just keep falling short? You know, you keep, or do you step back and say, wait a minute, if I change the rock size, dimensions, wait for it to not be choppy? I mean, there's a lot of things you can do, right? Um, and then I think you get a better, better outcome. So anyway, it is fun. It is fun.

Wendy Roop 19:34

And I agree. I say we go to the beach and do that.

Joe Morgan 19:36

Let's do it. I'm up for that. Come on down. Okay.

Karen Benoy Preston 19:38

Come on down. So, what's the second thing that you do other than skimming stones? Because I'm already intrigued.

Joe Morgan 19:45

Yeah, I'm big on the ocean. So you'll see a lot of things in my life that are relate back to the sea. So it's actually four things. You start with skimming stones, which is more of a strategic tac versus tactical thing. And then the second thing is high tide. So, what do you do when pressure's on you? So there's um a lot that comes with that, right? And then there's low tide, which is when there's there's treasure on the beach. So, what what are you attracted to when there's no time? Oh, excuse me, there's no pressure on your time. And then the final one, I grew up in Maine. So when you sit on the rocks and you look at the horizon, there's nothing more comforting and satisfying than that. Maybe actually, other than the window you're looking out of care. And so I think the horizon is just an amazing time to just contemplate on you know, where do we take this next? So that's those are kind of the four steps that I developed over time because that's how I've I've thought about all the coaching that I've had in my life. So, but that's the way I do it.

Wendy Roop 20:46

That's cool. That's fun.

Scott McGohan 20:52

I'm taking notes.

Karen Benoy Preston 20:54

I know. I'm I know, me too. I'm like, and I can't wait. I can't wait to experience this actually, really, why I'm here, even. Yeah.

Joe Morgan 21:03

Well, we gotta go for a walk too. We gotta do a dialogue miles.

Dialogue Miles Starts As A Movement

Joe Morgan 21:07

Oh, yes.

Scott McGohan 21:09

Joe, uh what we walk four or five miles, maybe?

Wendy Roop 21:13

Yeah, tell us more about that, Joe. Tell us more about the dialogue walks for our listeners.

Joe Morgan 21:18

And and I will say that I'm gonna I've already taken a note on that. I gotta go find out what happened with that. But I learned more about Scott walking with you than I knew about you before I walked with you, I think. Um, so I walked with a guy, uh a guy that I've worked with for a number of years in London last week, two weeks ago, and I learned stuff about him. He's a very accomplished triathlete. I didn't know that. You I just posted the story today, it's incredible. But and he's very humble. He didn't want me to say a whole lot about it, but I I had to because it was so cool. So, yeah, the story of Dialogue Miles is fascinating. So, um, there's a woman, her name's Deb Cup. She used to work for me at Stanley Register. We've known each other forever and ever, and she is Just an amazing leader. She is um, she has a huge job at Microsoft now, and I'm just so proud of her as a friend. And also the fact that we have a leader like her that starts with human-centered connection with an organization that's so global is incredible because she's touching the hearts of people on a global basis every day. And it's just, it's just wonderful. But after COVID, we had spent a lot of time when we worked together traveling, and we'd come back with these amazing stories that we'd share with others that would benefit from, you know, our ability to get information out of our clients and customers that they had a harder time doing because we're both incredibly curious, and I think we create a nice environment for the customer. So I met her at uh Central Park and we went for a walk. And um I've told this story a bunch of times, but the the uh a mile or two became one hour became two hours, and we we sat down, had a had a burger and a beer and chatted about it. Um, I have my own business now, so I didn't have to go back and run a company. She did. So I just went to a bar and had a glass of wine and I thought that was really awesome. Like I think that's a story that should be shared in some form. So I I sent her a text and I said, This can't just stay with us. Let's find a way to summarize this in some form. And so we did. We each wrote that. I called Chloe, who works with me at um SIY, and I said, I want a platform. I'm a platform guy, I always like to scale things. So give me a let's build the platform. We went back and forth and she said, Are you sure you can walk that far? Because I started out with like 300 miles or whatever. She said, Why don't we call it 100 miles of dialogue? And I said, Okay, because what I want to do is I want to reach out to the influencers in my life and I want to tell them what they mean to me and how I've achieved certain things because of their insights. And so I reached out, I made a list of all these people. It was great. It's incredible when you do that because there's so many people that have affected all of us in our life, right? So I said, I'm not gonna have them come to me, I'm gonna go to them. That was part of my empathy journey. And so I traveled different places and I met with all these people and I walked with them and I captured stories. And then from that came inbound, like, can we do this, Joe? I know you don't know me that well, but would you be willing to walk with me? And and then I'm in a hotel and someone hears about it, and they, you know, the other day somebody called me, you're the dialogue miles guy, which was so rewarding to me. That's because I just wanted to have a movement, you know, healthy conversation, intentional human connection. And so 100 miles of dialogue was the starting point, and now it's dialogue miles. And I walk with people, like it's just so incredible. And the stories are not intended to be intrusive, but helpful. And people tell you things, and then I always take a picture, find something that happened in nature or in the experience we had, and then I ask, are you okay if we share this story? And uh, never had anybody say no. I've only had people add to it, not take away from it. So it's been really good. And I'm writing about it. I'm I'm composing now to try and bring this together and figure out a way to get more and more people involved. So it's but it's a blast. I have so much fun. I walked a hundred miles with one of my best friends last summer. It was unbelievable. We stayed in hot inns in New England for five to six nights. It was absolutely hilarious. Oh my god, we had so much fun. It was great.

Wendy Roop 25:33

You are living life, Joe. That's common.

Joe Morgan 25:35

Oh my god, it was the best.

Wendy Roop 25:37

How often do you like do you do you do it pretty organically, or do you like have a goal of okay, I would like to do it this often?

Joe Morgan 25:45

Or I'm just 30. I have 35 names on my board that I have people have asked me if I would do it, or I have, you know, people I'll give you an example. Last night I told you the story about going to the bar, getting the food. I my wife is going to find out that I had a beer through this podcast. So just so you know, I'm the transparency is coming out through this means, this mechanism. But I was sitting next to this guy and I said, Hey, you know, I asked him about the game and we talked. And he said, Were you on a healthcare board? And I said, I was. He said, I was on a Zoom call with you like six years ago. I'm like, really? And he he said, Yeah, you're Joe Morgan, right? Because he saw the name on the bag. And um, I said, I am. And then so he remembered that, which is sadly I did not remember that, but he did. And then I told him, let's get together for and I said, No, let's not get together for coffee. How about if we go for a walk? Absolutely. So we're doing a dialogue, Miles, um, in about when I get back from vacation. So it is, it just sort of happens. Yeah, it happens, so it's fun.

Wendy Roop 26:50

Great. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Joe Morgan 26:52

Of course. Oh, well, can I give you one other story about this, which is great? Related to empathy. So I couldn't do this without my grandson or my wife and my daughter involved. But my wife has zero interest in social media, and and we don't do anything with our grandson on social media. So, what I did is I took a picture of their shadow. And um, my wife and I, my wife and I went to pick up my grandson at daycare, and then we walked back with him from daycare back to our place and told that story. Totally different experience walking with my wife than it was walking with my grandson.

Scott McGohan 27:29

Yeah.

Joe Morgan 27:30

It was so much fun. And you know that from Scott from the work you're doing.

Scott McGohan 27:34

Oh, yeah, that's so cool. Yeah.

Joe Morgan 27:37

Anyway, you got me going on that.

Scott McGohan 27:39

No, you got us going.

Wendy Roop 27:41

Yes, that's I mean, talk about unique and just a difference maker. I mean, I think all of us are huge on just the power of story too, and and allowing people to share their stories. Um, and quite frankly, you know, I don't think we do that enough within the workplace, too, right? Really leaning into each other in in in that way. Um so yeah, super special. Thank you for sharing that.

Joe Morgan 28:09

Yeah, absolutely.

What People Gain From The Walks

Karen Benoy Preston 28:11

I I have a question.

Joe Morgan 28:13

Yes.

Karen Benoy Preston 28:14

It's kind of a twofold, two two part question. Um from a transformational perspective. What is it that you witness for those that you're walking alongside? And then the second part, Joe, is what is it that you get from that?

Joe Morgan 28:36

No one's asked no one's ever asked me that question. That's a great one. Um, I would say that can you repeat the first part of that? I was fixated on what I got from it.

Karen Benoy Preston 28:47

Yeah, you're you're as a witness, as an observer, and uh hold the space for their transformation, right? So what is what is it they're getting? But why do they want to be part of this? You know, like what what is their transformation? How do you define what that looks like for them? And then what does it mean to you? What is your transformation in there?

Joe Morgan 29:08

Yeah, I would I would put it's sort of in buckets, right? So the people that know me well, they knew that it was going to be story rich and it was going, they weren't sure what I was gonna actually share. So what they got from it was transparency and honesty about what they actually meant to me. And I would say universally, they were surprised at the clarity of what I shared with them. So I think that kind of proved something to me that none of us really know the impact we might have on another. And I think a eulogy is almost too late in many ways. So I someone asked me, is this your walking eulogy? And I said, uh, that feels a little negative to me. I don't think that's actually that's almost sounds a little self-serving too. I think it's not really that. It's more, I think it's important to know. I think it's great, you know. Um, so I would say that that's that group was really very surprised. But then what happened was they started sharing more about what I meant to them, which wasn't at all what I thought was going to happen. But then we end up in this like amazing, strong feeling about how proud we are of each other to have each other in our lives and the blessings and the missed time because not everyone we didn't get to spend as much time as maybe we had wanted to, but there was this universal connection. So that was one. I think the um the other one that I found with people that I don't know all that well, there is a little nervousness at the entry point because they're not really sure what this is going to be. And I think very often in life we walk into a situation where someone says it's going to be something and it turns out very different. It's you say, I don't really want anything from you, but I actually do. And so it's going to get incredibly uncomfortable very fast because it's almost like a sales pitch or something. And I've had several people say how shocked they were that it actually was exactly what I said it was. It's just a dialogue that goes wherever it goes, just like the path we're on. It's it's not intended to be something anything more than that. Now, do I have relationships that have come as a result of it? Yeah, but not in every case. The other thing that happened, uh, it's not exactly an answer to the question, but I think it relates to both parts of it. Is there was a guy that I walked with in uh in Austin, Texas. He was a client of mine, or is a client of mine. And um, I was walking, and I I've always been a pace-oriented person. I always want I'm a I'm a high pretty high achiever. I like to compete. Um, while empathy is on the bottom, I think competition is like number two for me. So I like to win most everything that I participate in. And he said to me, You do realize you just walked past a historic landmark. And I'm like, didn't know that. So he said, Joe, you need to slow down. Like, let's just have a conversation. So I don't, I do measure on my watch how far we walk just because it's interesting. But I that was one of the big things before 100 miles of dialogue, 100 miles. I don't have any measurement in it anymore. It's just more experiential. But that was one of the things that I took away was take a deep breath. It's not about how fast or how far, it's about truly being engaged in that experience with the other person. And that that was a big learning that people um gave to me. And then I've um, you know, honestly, the other thing that's happened for me is it's helped me heal. I I I've been on three walks where I've actually cried with another person uh about loss.

unknown 32:56

Yeah.

Joe Morgan 32:56

And we and I didn't know that they had lost a sister or whatever. I lost my sister a number of years ago, and we're both crying on the walk. I didn't, I thought it was just going to be a different experience. And so to me, it was it was wonderful to to have that experience. So I hope that was a rough answer to the question. It's amazing, almost immeasurable what I've gained from my experience with so many people, though. That's pretty cool.

Karen Benoy Preston 33:23

Or end given. I mean, yes, both. Like it's it's definitely it's a two-way street there, no pun intended. Thank you. Yeah.

Wendy Roop 33:37

Um, Scott, you have anything?

Scott McGohan 33:39

Yeah, I think Joe, too. Um, you know, one of the things too. So like I born and raised in Dayton. And Joe, when you were in Dayton, we we never really connected. No. And and then so um, so I f you know, we founded one morning and I wanted to ask Joe. And I'll be honest with you, I was like super nervous to send him something because I'm like, this guy's gonna tear this thing apart, he's just gonna rip it to shreds. Um I mean, because uh I mean you lead, you've led some big organizations, you're on some big boards. I'm curious too, if if an organization asks you to be on your board, what what makes yes, yes, and a no no?

Choosing Boards With Values And Joy

Joe Morgan 34:26

I th I think I have to the the yes yes would be I have to be aligned with their intention, their values, and their purpose. And I also have to feel as though I'm adding some value. Um, so that's really important to me. So if someone asks me, and it's purely transactional, I can't give my heart and soul as much. So that to me is a project, and a board's not a project. So I really want to be aligned because I I will spend a lot of time and I'll give of myself. What would be no is that if I it's kind of the opposite of the yes, I suppose, uh, if it's very evident early in that it's just a misalignment in in terms of um, or there's just a lack of appreciation for what I bring, and and there's a oversimplification of of how I might approach things, or not appreciation of how I might approach things. I have the luxury, I suppose, at this stage to do that. Maybe in the past you kind of give on some things that maybe at this stage you don't so much, but I just want to feel valued. And the other thing that's really important to me, I wrote down some stuff based on some questions that you have that I'll share at some point before we're done. Yeah, is joy is so important to me. If if I'm not happy with what I do, then I'm just not gonna be that great. And I'm like one of the most joyful people in general that you'll be around. But I'm also hard on myself and I'm I'm very intentional on on the work I do. So if you're gonna put your time into something and I'm gonna be away from my wife and my friends and family, I sure as hell better get something back from it that's really meaningful to me. Otherwise, it's a it's a take, not a not a balance. So that's what I that's what I would say. That's that would be my answer.

Scott McGohan 36:14

No, because I see that too. And like even like if you well, uh, you know what I'm more interested in than my next question is I'm interested in the question, the answer to the question that's in front of you.

Karen Benoy Preston 36:24

Yeah.

Scott McGohan 36:25

If there was a question that was compelling that you were curious about.

Joe Morgan 36:30

You mean on the on the questions that you guys sent me? Yeah, you I wrote down some stuff because I'm I'm always you got F3, Family Faith, Friends, which is interesting. And all of those have evolved over time, by the way. It's not fixed, it's always kind of changed. And then I had this. You asked a question about advice that was really interesting. And I don't know if you have ever felt this, but you know, I'm an older person, as you can tell. I've had a lot of experience, but I still walk into situations and I feel young and inexperienced. I still have a piece of that that makes me feel, and it's not that I'm an imposter or anything like that. It's just, hmm, there's some information that I don't yet have that will confirm or discount my ability to help this situation. And I'm I'm looking for that. So I don't always walk in with this, you know, over abundance of I got this. I there's some stuff I just don't know yet. So that's part of what I what I do. So advice, I'm big on trying to create something that you'll memorize, you'll remember. I just made this up actually in preparation for this. So this is not something that's been written about or proven. It's called S4.

S4 Advice Simplify And Suck Sometimes

Joe Morgan 37:42

Um, and these are things that I actually do from an advice standpoint. One is simplify. Simplify, simplify, simplify. The more complex it is, the more hard it is to follow. So simplification is really important. The second one is um surround, surround by great people, great situations, but most importantly, the truth. Because fiction is interesting to read, but it's not a good path to live on. It's just not not gonna, it's not gonna be that great. Self-awareness would be the third S. And this will be the fun ones. And then the the fourth one is suck sometimes. Just suck. It's okay, you know, like don't try and be perfect. Just it's okay to suck. I mean, I I can't tell you how many times that's happened to me. And I'm like, and I and it's the greatest learning. They always say that failure is the greatest learning ground, but I think that's true. But I think failure is maybe a really strong word. Sucking is like a continuation, you know. You know what I mean? It's it's it's a bit longer, and I think there's a lot you can take from that. So those would be that's my S4. But with family, faith, and friends, like if you had F3 and S4, what connects the two for me is joy. Like if I have joy, then it it all seems to come together for me. So I thought I'd share that with you. But I made that up special for the podcast.

Scott McGohan 39:12

I like to already down.

Wendy Roop 39:14

You heard it here, people first.

Scott McGohan 39:16

First time, yes,

The Pain Of Letting People Go

Scott McGohan 39:18

exactly. Hey Joe, what what what's as a leader? What's the hardest thing you ever had to do?

Joe Morgan 39:27

The absolute hardest thing, and it's a category, but I'll personalize it. The category is ever having to let people go when it's not their fault. It's the circumstance, it's a macro issue that they didn't personally directly contribute to or connect to, but I had to still make the hard, hard call. And in working in manufacturing or in transformation, unfortunately, I had to do that quite a bit because of the nature of those businesses. But on a personal level, I had a guy that worked for me, who I actually went to college with, who was one of the most brilliant technical people that I'd ever known. And when I was at Sony, he worked for me. And uh, Rick, all at once, his daughter was diagnosed with leukemia. Um, he ended up having a stroke in his 30s. And I tried really hard to allow him to recover and continue to work, but he just was not the same person. So I had to actually meet with him, who was a dear friend of mine, and actually the person that convinced me to go to a party when I was a senior in college. Um, I won't give him 100% credit for introduce my wife and I meeting each other, but had I not gone to the party, I hadn't met my wife in four years, so maybe I wouldn't have met her. And so he uh he was that catalyst, and I had to let him go. And um that was two that was 1998, I think. I feel like it happened yesterday afternoon. I think about it all the time, all the time, and fortunately he's doing okay, and his daughter's recovered, so um at least at a place where she's cancer free. So yeah, uh, that was probably the single hardest professional thing that I had to do, I would say. It really, it really affected me in a lot of ways.

Scott McGohan 41:22

You know, I have just I have like 22 people that have had to face face to face. And I to this I pray for them every day. And I can remember even hiring people leaders at McGowan Braybender and saying, you know, how many people have you had to let go? And they might say three or four, and I'd say, What are their names? I'm like, I don't remember. I'd be like, Well, that's a problem. You know, you should remember their names. Um, because you're right. Uh, you know, the fact that that was that long ago and it's still I mean, you can see it in your face. I mean, it's that that's that's a painful part of your life.

Joe Morgan 42:02

It is, and and it it drives me crazy when leaders depersonalize that for their own benefit, because that's why they do it, I think. Um, you know, and one one thing that drives me absolutely crazy when people refer to reduction force as how many heads can we cut, I hate that. When people say that, I lose my respect. It's not that isn't what this is. These are people with families probably have kids, maybe don't have a spouse, maybe they have a close person, whatever. I mean, the day you lose that connection, I think is is really problematic. And um, but you know, I get it. When people have their back to the wall and survival is the only thing that's on the agenda, you have to do crazy things, but you still can be sensible and and have a heart.

Wendy Roop 42:53

So it goes back to kindness, right? Yeah, yeah.

Scott McGohan 42:57

Yeah, you know, Joe, going back to what we and I I can't stop talking, sorry, but going back to what we originally started the conversation with, you know, even that dialogue is like kindness is a really easy place to start. I mean, you can't argue with that. And if you can, I'd love to hear the debate. I mean, I'd love to be convinced.

Joe Morgan 43:23

Um Well, some people think it's weakness, which is strange to me. And it's it's not. I mean it's not at all. It's kind of a crazy concept.

Wendy Roop 43:34

So Yeah, there's a difference between I guess kindness and being nice, right? Like the kindness you can be direct and be kind, right? Like there there's a whole nother it's just a deeper level of really respect in my mind, you know. Yeah. When you say when you say the word. Yeah.

Joe Morgan 43:57

My mum was a first grade teacher and my dad was uh High school principal, assistant principal. My dad was a Marine in World War II. My mom was like the cutest first grade teacher you can ever imagine. And so she was the sweetest person. And then my dad, of course, was total kick butt, classic, you know, scared me most of the time. But, you know, you put that all in in the middle, and all they did was care about children. When I was a child during the Vietnam War, they used to talk about the lost kids at dinner at night. And it was heartbreaking for them to know that a child that they had in their care had lost their lives, you know, in defense of this country. So I remember that as a kid. It was it was really tough for them. So I that hasn't left me.

Scott McGohan 44:47

Yeah, I can remember walking with you too and talking about your childhood. It was fascinating. Matter of fact, on the walk, it started raining while Joe and I were were were walking, and we didn't even stop. We just walked right in the rain downtown Dayton. Yeah, it was it was fascinating. It was fantastic. And I I grew up in this town. There's street yeah, there's streets I never walked down.

Joe Morgan 45:07

You said that to me, yeah. You you had never gone down the street.

Scott McGohan 45:10

No.

Wendy Roop 45:12

Yeah.

Joe Morgan 45:13

Yeah. It's a pretty it's a pretty cool experience. We'll all do it sometime individually.

Wendy Roop 45:18

I would love to.

Joe Morgan 45:20

Yeah, for sure.

Wendy Roop 45:21

Take you up on it.

Scott McGohan 45:23

Well, I'm biting my tongue, Wendy and Karen. So if you want to jump, you gotta jump.

Wendy Roop 45:27

Yeah. Um a couple things before we wrap up here, because I could tell we could all sit here and talk to you for ever. Um, I love uh when I was reading more about you, too, you know, it says my passion is to empower people and foster curiosity in every aspect of my work. And obviously from what you've shared, we can tell that. Um and I know all three of us care about both of those things. Kara and I, you know, being coaches, of course. Um that that empowerment and curiosity is just so important. But when you think of, you know, leaders in the workplace, um what do you feel like if if there was just one thing that they could do more of, or maybe the thing is they do less of, right? How can they empower people and be more curious?

Presence Is The Real Leadership Skill

Joe Morgan 46:37

I think that it's it's about your presence. I really do. I I think that so many people are distracted by so many things. I I was actually on a call earlier today, and I gave some young leaders this idea. And I think it may be part of what you're asking is if you draw two parallel lines, take a piece of paper and just draw two parallel lines right down the middle, and then put the word personal at the top on one side and professional on the other side, and write down all the distractions, personal distractions and professional distractions, and say in the middle is how you want to show up. This is my lane, so that I'm totally into the conversation, I'm totally there with you. What would that simple exercise allow you to discover about yourself? And I think what we would find is we naturally dilute ourselves when we are in with other people. And I think in doing so, we we end up missing out on so many great engagements because people check out. You know, you can be you can ask as many questions as you want, but if you've already demonstrated you're not there, people are going to give you a partial answer, maybe even no answer. And so I think it's I think it really does start with the presence. Um, a friend of mine, actually, she lives in Dayton. She made the comment today, and I totally agree with this is that when you have a really great coach or you have a really great person in your life, you feel like there's no one else in the room when they're with you. And and when you don't achieve that, that's like my grandmother. My grandmother lived to be 100 years old. She was in the bedroom next to me. Um, we had some tumult in our house at times. So grandma was my place to go. And I used to sit on her bed every night, look in her eyes, she would hold my hands. She had what we call the mitts, her hands were so big. Irish grandmother. But I'll tell you what, you talk about unconditional love 100%. I think that moment, those moments defined unconditional love with expectation. I was never let off the hook, but you know, the world needed me to be a good person and be kind and do think good things, take advantage of all that I had been given. But I think that that connection is possible for each of us without being personally intrusive. We can still connect with people and be caring enough to say, hmm. Tell me about that one time in your life that transformed your thinking. Tell me a little bit about that picture on your why is there only one picture on your shelf? And you chose that for a reason. Why? I think I think we can make that connection, and it'll take it'll really help people have the confidence that they can take it forward, which goes back to a question you asked earlier. Is I think all of us in the work we do are trying to create a movement of some sort. Yeah, we want people to take that experience we have and do it again and again and again and again, and that's how we're gonna build the momentum that we're seeking. So that would that would be my response to that.

Wendy Roop 49:52

Beautiful. Thank you for that.

Joe Morgan 49:56

My grandson is six. He asked me, Papa, you ask a lot of questions.

Wendy Roop 50:01

I get that too.

Joe Morgan 50:02

I do. He said, and my wife said, Yeah, that's because he's kind of your age.

Wendy Roop 50:09

I love it. Never grow up, right?

Joe Morgan 50:11

You never really grew up, exactly. Which is good. I'm cool with that.

Scott McGohan 50:15

Anyway, yeah. Well, I think uh Joe, I can't thank you enough for um you know for joining us today.

Joe Morgan 50:22

And oh, I'm honored.

Scott McGohan 50:24

Yeah, well, it just it I I really didn't expect this conversation to go, you know, the direction that it went, but it's just so valuable. Um, you know, what what what you shared. It it means a lot to us that you would uh you you would spend some time with us. Um I'm thinking about one last question before we wrap up. And and I always you know, my son's on here, he he he drives like the audio and all this for us. But you know, as a parent, um if I if I had a 21 20 year old son or daughter, and if I'm 20 years old and I'm listening to this, and I asked, you know, Joe, I I think of you as like you are like one of the smartest people I've ever met. Um for a couple of reasons. And I'm gonna get to the question. But one is um you you are incredibly kind and you are a good listener. Um, but you you speak with such brevity and it's

Advice For 20 Somethings At Work

Scott McGohan 51:26

loud. Um it's just loud. And um and with that is just so much authority uh that I and we haven't known each other that long, but I've just always re uh always uh just appreciated that in you. But if I'm 20 years old and I'm listening to this, and I had to and you had to give a 20-year-old one piece of advice going into the workforce, well what would that advice be?

Joe Morgan 51:55

I think it's the same that I was given is assume that work ethic matters. Don't give up on work ethic, put the time and effort in. And as I think I may have told you this, and I know I'm not answering this with one word, so I'm kind of destroying the brevity comment, but I do think there's I do think there's an experience. Um, when I was 23, I'm a chemical engineer by education, and I was working for this company that got acquired. And I asked the owner if I could talk to this guy that had been placed by the acquiring company. Because I I said I saw this guy, and I'm like, he must be really important because they chose just this one guy to be placed there. So I got a meeting, you know. I'm 23 and I had like one sport code. I didn't know what to do. I mean, I wasn't brought up like in in the business environment, if you will. So I asked him, I said, Mr. Um, Mr. Kurvis, what would your advice be for me? Not Kervis, that was a different guy. Um, Foster, what would your advice be for me? He said, it's as simple as this ask the most senior person that you meet what's most important to them, and ask them if you can have a role in that experience. Ah and that guy that guided my career. So I've always I always did that until I became that person that was leading the company. And that that allowed me to be on the agenda, allowed me to see how it worked. And so that was that was now. I didn't get paid a lot until a little bit later, but I was okay. I sacrificed that in favor of the experience, and I knew the experience with work ethic would get me where I needed to go. So that's that's how I would answer that question. And that's a I'm very um that's a very generous thing for you to say about me. Thank you so much. That meant a lot.

Scott McGohan 53:47

Well, I got a call from I'm on a board mile too, and Joe was on the board, and the CEO called me and said you were recommended by by Joe. I'm like, what by Joe Morgan? What you like me? Are you serious? And you know, and some of that's self-defeating, too. That's not fair either, right? We we shouldn't do that to ourselves. But everything it was uh it it was one heck of a it was a nice compliment. So and uh the great uh the great work that you've done in this community. We uh we miss you uh they don't make them um like you anymore. So I'm not sure how old you are, but I don't think you're that much older than I am, but they just don't make them like that anymore.

Joe Morgan 54:33

So I'm mid I'm in my mid-sixties and I feel like I'm much younger.

Scott McGohan 54:38

I do too. You know what? I know we we gotta go, but one last question. How old do you how old do you feel?

Joe Morgan 54:45

Like I've uh probably late 30s.

Scott McGohan 54:49

Me too, 100%.

Joe Morgan 54:51

Yeah, like I said, I get jazz, I get jazzed by talking to young people and being around young people, and yeah, I don't I don't feel limited at all. I really don't know.

Scott McGohan 54:59

I was at this company today and and I was like, this place is empty. So well, Monday's our work for home day. And I'm like, what a terrible idea. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, like Tuesday's a better day. Like, well, why? And I'm like, Monday's just an extended weekend, like, oh no, it's not, and I'm like, Oh, yeah, it is. Um, does that make sense?

Joe Morgan 55:24

Yeah, no, I I hear it see it all the time. I one thing that I said to somebody recently, they because they told me the same thing Monday and Friday, the garage is empty and the office is up there. I said, that's fascinating. So, how did you determine that the life-changing experiences only happen Tuesday through Thursday? Like, what do you mean? I'm like, think about just drive home and think about what I just said. I don't I think the greatest times are when you're excited about what you're gonna do this weekend and what you get to tell about what you did in the weekend, and no one gets to do that anymore. That sucks. I think. Anyway.

Where To Find Joe And Join In

Wendy Roop 56:01

Oh gosh, this has been great. Um, like I said, we could such an honor. Hey Joe, where um where can our listeners find you, right? Um find out more about you, your work, etc.

Joe Morgan 56:14

Sure. Well, I have a website, safe inspired you.com. If you want to follow me on LinkedIn, that's where my dialogue miles stories are. If you want to subscribe to Pebble in the Pond, which is my weekly Joe's experience uh newsletter, um, you can do that too. And you can do that on my website, which would be great. And then um, if you ever want to reach out, joe.morgan at safe inspired you.com. Love to schedule a walk or a conversation and uh teach me something because I'm wicked curious. And my purpose in life is to help people see the unseen and do wicked awesome things with the discovery. So it's not just about talking, it's about doing something that changes the world. So that would be great. Join the movement on on uh dialogue miles, it'd be great. And we're gonna all walk, Scott. I am gonna find the the lost story, and then we're gonna post that soon, and then we're gonna, I hope Wendy and Karen we get a chance to walk. And Taylor too, if you want to.

Scott McGohan 57:13

Wow, don't forget the 4S, the 4s, right? Simplify, surround, self-awareness, and it's okay to suck. Yeah, yes, and if you're gonna do it, learn. Go suck and learn. Go suck and learn something.

Joe Morgan 57:27

Yeah, share the sucking.

Wendy Roop 57:30

Well, this has been fun. Thank you again, Scott. Thanks for connecting us. And um, with that, everyone, we will see you next time.