Stress Turns Cracks Into Canyons

Tony Miltenberger 0:00

Prolonged stress turns things in our lives that would otherwise be a crack, and it turns them into a canyon. And so it becomes uh like a magnifying glass, and you can ignore cracks, and you can kind of walk over cracks and you can do all these things, but but you could die in a canyon, you could get lost in a canyon. One of the things that I really began to realize as I worked with more and more people is that the beautiful gift in a canyon is that you can explore it. You can actually walk around in it, you can get comfortable with it.

Meet Tony And The Work

Wendy Roop 0:36

Welcome back to Culture is an inside job, everyone. Great to see you, Karen and Scott, as always. Karen has got this beautiful red shirt on. Gosh, you just, you know, look like you're ready for Christmas.

Karen Benoy Preston 0:49

Well, we don't want to date ourselves here, but this is my uh I am kind of like trying to be festive. So yeah.

Wendy Roop 0:56

Okay, here we go. Yeah, that's true. And we have an amazing guest with us um this morning uh today. His name is Tony Miltenberger. And um Tony is first of all, welcome, Tony. Welcome and thank you for joining us.

Tony Miltenberger 1:13

Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here. I'm I'm excited. I've been watching some episodes on YouTube. You guys are pros. I love it.

Wendy Roop 1:20

Awesome. So Scott and I both know uh have known Tony for a while. Scott, where when did you meet Tony?

Scott McGohan 1:28

Uh gosh, in my office. Um, Tony came in and we sat down and um we didn't know each other. And in the first five minutes, we uh we made a decision that we shouldn't be allowed in the same room together. That agreed, agreed. It was just like crazy. Did a Thankful Thursday when he walked out of the office, and it was just it was an incredible experience, and uh he's just a dear friend.

Wendy Roop 1:57

Isn't it funny how sometimes you just connect like that, you know? Um, and then I actually met Tony. My dad passed in 2019, and my brother Todd is uh good friends with Tony, and um and so we invited Tony to really, you know, speak at my dad's celebration of life or whatever you want to call it. And um, Tony did an amazing job, and so I got to meet him then, but then got to know him better over the last few years. Um uh Tony is now a certified iPEC coach, like Karen and ISO. Woo-hoo! Welcome to the club. Woohoo! Yes, he is uh he is uh an author, he is a speaker, he is a pastor, um, and uh just can't say enough great things about you. So with that, Tony, we as you know, right, like this is culture is an inside job. This is our podcast. And so when we were thinking of different guests to bring on, you of course came to mind for both Scott and I. And I think part of that is just because who you are as a person, um, but also because of your book um and uh you know, wisdom in the wound. And so I think before we dive into that, which we could probably talk for hours about that book, but maybe what is it that you want your guests to know, our guest, what do you want our guests to know about you and the core of your work? I think that's when you know what this podcast is, what do you want them to know about you?

Tony Miltenberger 3:40

Yeah, I would say the number one thing um to know about me is that I care a lot more about transformation than information. And so there's a lot of things that we're gonna say that uh that might resonate. There'll be some nuggets and uh it'll, you know, you guys are all very, very smart people, those listening, and of course, um you, the hosts, and uh information very, very rarely transforms our life. And so one of my core beliefs is that information plus application equals transformation. And my prayer is that maybe there's something here today that um that you'll hold on to and apply it to your life, and because of that, you'll be one degree different. And one degree different in the beginning doesn't really matter a whole lot, but a year from now, one degree could change the world, and I really believe that.

Wendy Roop 4:31

Yeah, so true, so true, Tony. Um, I think it's important to share how did you get to the place that you are now with number one, making the decision to become

Identity, COVID, And Writing The Book

Wendy Roop 4:48

a certified coach, but also um deciding to write this book. Like where what has brought you to that point?

Tony Miltenberger 4:56

Mostly my own mistakes. Uh I'm kind of a mess most of the time. And so I was very fortunate. I enlisted in the army um reserves right out of high school. And I'm a local high school guy, so Chaminade Julienne, and uh loved, loved going to school there, met Mary my high school sweetheart, and uh and started getting into the work of trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. And oftentimes one of the things I realized is that my identity was so rooted in the things that I was doing. And so I went from the army and then I went into pastoral ministry, and uh it was during COVID when my wife and I were taking our second walk of the day, because that's what we did during COVID. We walked all the time. And so we had taken a walk in the morning, and then that afternoon, we're taking a walk around our neighborhood, and I looked at my wife and I said, Babe, I've been here before. And she was like, Yeah, dummy, we were here this morning. And I was like, not like really here, but like, um, but like emotionally, I've been here before. And she said, Well, what do you mean? And I said, Well, what when I was deployed, one of the things that I realized is that prolonged stress, the kind of stress that just uh continues to build over time, the kind of stress that says, I don't know when this is gonna end, the kind of stress that says, I don't know how it's gonna work out. Prolonged stress turns things in our lives that would otherwise be a crack and it turns them into a canyon. And so it becomes uh like a magnifying glass. And so prolonged stress magnifies the cracks and turns them into canyons. And you can ignore cracks and you can kind of walk over cracks and you can do all these things to just pretend like the crack isn't there, but but you could die in a canyon, you could get lost in a canyon. And one of the things that I really began to realize as I worked with more and more people is that the beautiful gift in a canyon is that you can explore it. You can actually walk around in it, you can get comfortable with it, and um, that kind of became the process of what is is now wisdom in the wound. And I initially started writing a book called Cracks to Canyons, and it wasn't um it wasn't mature enough. I wasn't mature enough, probably, and uh that was a beautiful process, a multi-year process of eventually then getting to what we have today, which is this realization in my own life and and maybe in yours as well, that um wisdom isn't the absence of wounding, but rather the intimacy with it that really changes us.

Karen Benoy Preston 7:46

Say that again.

Tony Miltenberger 7:47

Wisdom isn't the absence of wounding, but the intimacy with it.

Karen Benoy Preston 7:56

Yeah, that's it.

Wendy Roop 8:00

Yeah. What comes up for for you, Scott or Karen?

Scott McGohan 8:04

I think it's you know, it's like even in the book, Culture is an inside job, it it has very little to do I shouldn't say very little, but it's more about individual culture and it it it it really is based on at least and Tony, your story and my story aren't very far apart. Matter of fact, most of our stories aren't very, very, very far apart. And and most of our stories, sadly, is is based on an identity that was falsely created. And sometimes they're falsely created by humanity, by maybe a poor parent or a or you know, maybe a spouse or somebody, but mostly they're they're created by really bad self-talk that we have within ourselves. And then like even in your book, the wounds that we create, and and and sometimes sadly they're created by other people, but sometimes we create our own wounds. Uh and then when we when we open those wounds up, and like what you said, you walk around and there's a lot of self-discovery, and it's it's lonely and it's dark, but gosh, there's so much beauty. There's so much beauty and just that self-discovery. And even, you know, Tony is like even going back, and you know, I got to I got to meet the eight-year-old little Scott, and I liked eight-year-old Scott. He was a pretty good guy, you know, and I got to go back and meet him, and I got to maybe maybe sit down next to him and say, dude, who do you want to be? And uh that was that was a beautiful part of my life. And so if you're listening out there and you know, you don't feel good about who you are, to think you know, think about that place when you were little that you did like yourself and go back and sit with that sit back, you know, sit with that little tiger. Um, that person's still there. It's it's still there. And like Tony said too, it's not a crack, you know, it's a canyon if you're brave enough to go in there. Um some cool stuff can can happen if you're brave enough to go deep into it. And so your book's beautiful, man. Uh it is just it is it is it is beautiful. I but you gotta be brave. You gotta be brave to read it. And uh so I encourage people to look at it. So thanks for sharing. Uh thanks for sharing. That was a long answer to a short question, Wendy.

Wendy Roop 10:27

No, I love it. Welcome to Cultures and Inside Job.

Karen Benoy Preston 10:34

Sharon, anything for you? You left me speechless. Um I would first say just ditto, but I I love the reframe. I love the the ability to look at this as a gift rather than, you know, a curse. Right.

Wounds, Self Talk, And Going Back

Tony Miltenberger 10:50

Yeah, one one of the unique things that I realized in the study of all of this is I tend to approach things from a scientific viewpoint, but also a theological viewpoint. From scientifically, some people would call this like little tea trauma, the wounding that I'm talking about. It's the kind of wounding that doesn't happen on purpose. It's not malice and intent. And so um, I haven't met anyone that doesn't have it. And so somewhere between the ages of four and twelve, we pick up a lens that becomes our little tea trauma, our kind of like our core wound. Now, theologically, if you um prescribe to a faith uh that kind of aligns with Christianity, um, we would call that the epistemic consequence of sin, which really is just a really fancy way to say, hey, the world is broken, and here is the actual handles that go with the brokenness. Like I haven't met anyone who doesn't say the world is broken. And I get to speak to rooms all over the world, and everyone's like, yeah, the world is broken. We all get it, but what's the consequence of that brokenness? And what I kind of try to assert in the writing is that the consequence is that we all have this wound, and that wound becomes a lens. But because of the nature of the human uh mentality of God's redemption, if you believe in that, then on the other side of your wound is almost always your greatest gift. And so then what happens is when we get to that reframing part, Karen, like you said, is there's this beautiful thing where all of a sudden you can begin to say, Man, I'm so thankful for my wound because it gives me the ability um to use my gift. And so now, you know, Scott, much like you said, uh 10-year-old Tony is who I talk about a lot. And 10-year-old Tony Um had a really hard time being seen. My parents had unplanned twins um when I was four, and then ended up getting divorced and remarried later on. And those unplanned twins put me from being the youngest to the middle and changed our lives in the best way. I love my brother and sister, wouldn't want them to be anywhere else in the world than where they are now. And also, as a young little boy, I just felt like I didn't matter anymore. Now that wasn't anybody's fault. Like nobody did that to me. I wasn't a victim of any of that stuff. It's just the brokenness of the world played out in my life in that way. And what I found is through hundreds of hours of pastoral counseling and executive coaching and even my own counseling with my own psychologist, like everybody's got one, you know, like everybody's got it. And so the just the wisest people learn to let the feelings in the car but don't let them drive.

Karen Benoy Preston 13:42

We gotta manage it all, right? Yeah, protect it.

Wendy Roop 13:46

Tony, I'm so glad that you brought that up because um, you know, actually recently, and I'm not gonna mention any names, but somebody very close to me had said I was just talking about how aware I am of my inner critics and gremlins and you know, all the things. And um, and they were like, Oh, I don't

Trauma Lenses And Gifts On The Other Side

Wendy Roop 14:10

even go there. Like, I'm not, I'm not, you're like, I'm not even kind of like, I'm not even opening that can of worms . Like, why would I do that? Right. And um, and they're quite a bit, they're like eight years younger than me. I'm like, I'll be here when you need to call me when you discover that, but but I think it's it's so true because I do think, right, and I say this to um, you know, those that I do one on work with one-on-one work with and and in workshops and so forth, like this isn't work that just anybody will do because it is hard work, right? And um and but what I'm curious about from your perspective is when you think about leadership and culture, um why is talk a little bit more about why this work is so important.

Tony Miltenberger 15:07

Yeah, I mean, think practically, right? If you want to get into a business practicality of it, uh an ROI, people don't leave jobs very often because of the job or the pay. And and Scott, you talk a little bit about this in your book, they leave because of the leaders. And so when a leader is having um all of these reactions, when a leader comes in and blows their top, when he or she just doesn't handle it with um class or grace, then what ends up happening is people get alienated and it it costs time and money. And so I, you know, I always encourage the best leaders um to lean into this idea of let's not lean in or give permission to have an emotional reaction. Let's have an intentional response. And an intentional response is saying, wow, I'm having all of these feelings because you're human, even if you're a great leader, you're human. And so you're gonna have feelings, but feelings are just meant to be felt. They're decision points, they're not decision makers. Now, I don't want you to ignore your feelings, I want you to have them. And and I used to, you know, I still tell some of my coaching clients that if you're having a meeting with somebody who you know kind of like fires you up, somebody who bumps up against your wound, then you need to schedule time afterwards so that you can have a feeling dump. Right. You need to have a little time. My counselor said there was one person I was working at as uh uh executive director of a nonprofit, and there was one particular guy who just loved to question my integrity about the finances. And I wasn't in really that great with that stuff, but I was protected and I knew I was operating with integrity. And this guy would come in and he would pepper me with questions, and he wasn't he wasn't unfair in the questions. Like it wasn't like he was doing something wrong or malicious. His wound was that he just didn't trust people in leadership. My wound is I didn't like uh not feeling like I was seen or that I mattered. And so he would come in and he'd pepper me with all these questions, and I I would then the rest of the day, if you came into my office, there was a good chance I was gonna bite your head off and I was gonna be like, you know, just like not be me. And um my counselor and I kind of came up with a plan, which is a 30-minute feeling session after he left. And so he'd get on my calendar and then immediately I'd schedule a 30-minute buffer. And maybe that buffer was, you know, music and reading, maybe that buffer was doom scrolling, you know, maybe that buffer was an outdoor walk. It just I just needed the buffer because the best leaders know that feelings are decision points, but not decision makers, and we're most likely to operate outside of our values when we let feelings drive

Leadership Triggers And Feeling Buffers

Tony Miltenberger 17:55

a car that they're not qualified to drive.

Wendy Roop 18:00

I heard a quote the other day, Tony. This is what comes up for me is um I'm only one thought away from a new feeling. And that's what that reminds me of, right? Like you're so right. Like when we feel the feelings, especially those of us that are big feelers like myself, when you're in the middle of it, you feel like it's it's not gonna change. And it's so it's such a deep feeling, whether it's joy or whether it's pain or whatever it is, right? Um, but when we can realize exactly what you said, that like we are in control of those feelings, even though even when we don't think that we are, we're only one thought away from a new feeling. Yeah.

Scott McGohan 18:45

I think that if you remember that learning circle too at MB, it was observe, reflect, and discuss.

Karen Benoy Preston 18:53

Yeah.

Scott McGohan 18:54

And if we if we stay in that right side of the circle, then it's that phrase where your brain's like a bad neighborhood and you shouldn't be there alone. And you just you just waffle in that side. And then that's when you just lie to yourself. But Tony, and you said this, you go to the other side and you discuss that with another human being. You get that you get those lies out of your head, right? And you get in them in somebody else's noggin. And uh there's just so much peace in that. Uh, and it's so healthy to get that gunk, especially um to make sure, and then this is the worst thing, and and I see this all the time, is when people can't handle conflict and they don't know how to address conflict, then what happens is their spouse and their kids pay the price of that because they can't handle it at work, and then their five-year-olds get get blistered by mom or dad because their mom or dad can't handle conflict because they're never taught how to do it. And the kid's just like, what in the world did I do? And the kid did nothing wrong. And then that, and then guess what that kid learns? Right, and then that just manifests itself, and that's just generational trauma, a generational wound. And that's where the peacemakers come from, right? And the peacemakers, you talk about wounds. Holy smokes, those are nasty. And when those people explode, like you better have track shoes on, take off running.

Karen Benoy Preston 20:25

I think you're explaining the story of my life right now. Oh no, oh my goodness. Yeah, my um my word is reflexivity. You know, we've talked about reflection, but we don't credit reflexiveness as you know, that's really looking at the mirror. It's one thing to be able to look back at the experience, but the other is to look at look at yourself in it. And I think going back to, you know, Wendy, what you were saying, like whoever that person is that's so many years younger than you that said, no, I don't even go there. Well, because we've been taught that it's bad, rather than seeing it as the gift, rather than seeing it as that opportunity for growth, rather than seeing it as being able to walk along the walls of that canyon and really discover something really freaking cool about ourselves. Um and the word here that I come up with is reframing responsibility. Because we look at this and we think we've got to be shameful for those thoughts and feelings rather than we having the ability to respond. I just take the word and I flip it over on it, so reframe the word, right? Have the ability to respond. I don't have to be taking responsibility now, like that it's shameful and and that I should hold on to guilt around feeling like this or seeing the lens, seeing the the this experience through this lens. But having the ability to respond now is where I put my boots on. Or now I actually have my walking stick as I'm going along the sides of these canyons and and exploring. I'm with intention, willing to. Look, it's a very different level of energy, right? It's much more compassionate, it's much more

Reflexivity, Grace, And Curiosity

Karen Benoy Preston 22:05

constructive, and and ideally then we become more creative.

Tony Miltenberger 22:10

And yeah, one of the oh, sorry, go ahead.

Karen Benoy Preston 22:13

Nope. Just not feeling stuck in it, right?

Tony Miltenberger 22:16

Yeah, I was gonna just uh piggyback on that. Is that one of the things that we don't do very well is we don't give ourselves or other people grace. And I think part of the reason is we don't have a great definition of grace. And so one of the things that I just really believe is that grace and action is curiosity plus empathy. Is that do I have the courage? You know, and we talked about transformation a little bit. Do I have the courage to get to know your story and then sit in it with you? And so instead of judgment, gosh, why that person coming in so hot? We we lean on curiosity. Man, I wonder what they went through today that put them in that place. And then empathy is like, man, I just can't even imagine what it must be. I took my son, my 15 and a half year old son, to the BMB this morning. Uh, he got his temps today. So it was a big day in the Moltenberger household, right? Caleb was uh he was great, he did great. And we're walking in, and I said, Hey, Caleb, I just want you to know that kindness in a place like the BMV is a superpower. And he said, What do you mean? And I said, Well, people aren't very nice here very often because because everyone's coming in and they feel like their freedom is on the verge of not happening, right? And I said, So if you can smile and you can look people in the eye and just be extra kind, which thankfully he he's naturally kind anyway. Um, I said, it will just go a long way to make this process a little bit easier. And sure enough, we get in there and person over here is kind of yelling, person over here is kind of yelling, everybody's got their head down, and I'm like, it's okay, guys, it's okay. But but but again, grace in action is curiosity plus empathy. And how do we just lean into that? And if if you're a leader and you're listening to this, which you probably are, then be curious about the people that that work with you, be curious about your clients, be curious, and then once you once you realize that there's more to that story, and I know Scott said it on my podcast multiple times is you know, the whole thing about having people on your team is that they they come with their whole soul in their back pocket, you know, and that's just the reality of of what it means to be with people. And so grace is such a gift, and and having grace for yourself is a part of that.

Karen Benoy Preston 24:39

Mm-hmm.

Wendy Roop 24:41

Yeah, so let's talk about that a little bit more, right? Grace for yourself and curiosity with yourself. How how can leaders, Tony, begin to understand um the wounds that really do shape their leadership style, right? And and how that impacts culture. How can they have more curiosity about themselves and make some of those discoveries?

The Emotional Intensity Scale Tool

Tony Miltenberger 25:05

Well, certainly I there's a tool that I love to give leaders, and it's called the emotional intensity scale. And um the emotional intensity scale says on a scale from one to 10, anytime your emotional intensity spikes above a six, it's always more about you than it is the other person. So, for example, if I'm driving down 75 and somebody cuts me off, and then I use every word that I learned in the army, then um, that's more about me than it is about them. Like that person didn't cut me off on purpose. They're not out to get me, they're not trying to whatever. Um, so that's one way, right? Start to look for the emotional intensity spikes. But now, not just the bad spikes, also look for the really good spikes. And so I have two boys that both play football. If one of them uh plays on defense and intercepts the ball, takes it back, pick six, and I go full-blown Midwestern dad on the sideline and I start chest pumping strangers and I'm high five and people. Let's go, you know, like I go Centerville booster guy over here. So, like, you know, go, you know, go elks, whatever. You know, that and that same way that the person cut me off is the same way that I I'm responding when my son scores. And and neither of those responses are bad or good, they're just data points. And so my wound of I'll you know, just is that I I want to be seen. So when he cuts me off, what happens? I don't feel seen or safe. When my son scores, what happens? I feel like I'm seen. I did that. That's my DNA over there, right? And and those are the moments that are just really good data points. And so if you were like, I want to get better at knowing where I am, track the times in your life for the next week. And this is if you're listening to this and and it's around the holiday season, like it is as we record it, like uh it's a great time to track emotional spikes. Because when that one family member walks in your house and you immediately go, Oh, that's a spike. You need to pay attention to that. Like, wake up, pay attention. You know, emotional spikes are are your your body's way of saying, I'm having very strong feelings. And so that the best leaders will take the time to kind of um plot them. You know, when did this happen? What's the reoccurring? You know, the other thing that I love to tell people to do is to get with some friends that they really trust and ask them this question What's it like to be on the other side of me? And you can start asking that question, and all of a sudden things will really shift. And it's pretty uh clarity is is such a gift, you know. Brene Brown says clarity is kindness, and so when you can get really clear about who you are, you're being really kind with yourself.

Karen Benoy Preston 27:54

I think that she's um obviously I think she's brilliant. One of the things that I love that she's you know, um her work around values, that's kind of where my jam is as well. And I see it from this perspective, like when we don't have really strong alliance and you know, alignment with our values, we begin to wobble. And when we really are very clear and we're using our our values as our navigational tool to be able to help us navigate through really challenging times and make difficult decisions, or any decision really for that matter, then we kind of have this is our guardrails, right? Things get a little less wobbly. Um I love your emotional intensity scale. I'm definitely, definitely gonna start using that. And I and I love the reference of it's not good or bad, and it it can be just as much those highs as it is those lows, right? Just being aware and recognizing that the minute that we're in these spikes, what is the data? Right? Just be curious.

Wendy Roop 29:05

No judgment, just curious, right? Yeah, so often when you know, we do this kind of work with um people and they're like, okay, that's great, right? So I discovered, you know, my wound, you know, now what what do I do about it? I think we sell it's you know, how do I say this? Like we sell it short, the fact that just the awareness of it in itself is helping you, right? Just by being aware of when it shows up for you. And that's why I too, Tony, love that scale, because I mean that just hits you right in the face, like, oh, anything over a six, like that's about me, what right? So um I that is it it is such a gift, um, and it and it is so uh simple yet not easy, if you know what I mean, right? Because it requires to look back in the mirror.

Karen Benoy Preston 30:00

Well, that's that place of being comfortable with being reflexive, right? Like the again, like if we didn't, if we saw ourselves as not making mistakes and that we can't possibly fail, right? We're only ever always learning, then why would we not want to hold the mirror? Why would we not want to be reflexive? Why do we see this chasm of greatness as such a place of not of fear? Right.

Scott McGohan 30:30

I just see I see so many people that are so afraid of this. They're terrified. Like I gotta I I might have said this before, but I got a I got a note on social media, and I think I told you this. It said like I never knew you were so sad. Did I tell you the story?

Wendy Roop 30:52

I don't remember that.

Scott McGohan 30:53

And I was I was like, what? And I'm like, oh so I'm like, no, I I I like I throw this stuff out there because this is that's where I that's where I was. That's what I thought. And I and I know someone's there because I was there. And so I just want to throw that out there to let people know that like it like that's just okay. Because like what Tony found too is like I found redemption and restoration in my brokenness. It was the worst day of my life and the best day of my life at the same time.

Karen Benoy Preston 31:33

Wow, those growth rings are amazing, right? Like 10 times.

Scott McGohan 31:38

The fear of like I don't want to go there is just like well, like you know what the cost of that like it's costing you so much not to go there. It's costing your soul. And like even what you said too, Tony, is like like you were

Values, Disciplines, And Distraction Costs

Scott McGohan 31:55

made for a purpose and that purpose can't come alive until you can until you can figure that out. When you figure that out, man, life's just I mean, I've had the worst year of my life, no question about it. And guess what? Life's pretty good. You still have joy, right? Life's pretty good, it's not that bad. And like Tony, people look at you and I like, gosh, these these two guys are like tigger. Like these guys don't have any problems. Guess what? I got a lot of problems. I get depressed, I get sad, I cry. Um, all of those things. But at the end of the day, I have a great relationship with myself, I have a great relationship with with God, and I have great people and great friends, and I knew who I am deep down. And that took a lot of hard work, and I wouldn't change any of it.

Tony Miltenberger 32:43

Well, and the other part to that is that you're still working, right? It doesn't, it doesn't stop, right? Like I, you know, people always like, how do you get into this? And I'm like, well, it starts in the morning. It starts with a it starts with a good night's sleep, right? Like there's there's a set of dominoes, right? And I I come from the recovery background as I realize a lot of things about myself, and having a good morning proc program changes the way I show up. And as my seasons change, so does my morning program. Like this year was a really intense year for me, work-wise, with the the book and some other things. And so, so I had to make some adjustments. Like I had to push back that first client meeting because I can, right? I and I that's a gift, but I didn't push back my first meeting till nine so that I could make sure that I spend some time with my wife in the morning on a morning walk. And so, you know, one of the things that I just really believe in and I say all the time is that if you're not if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.

Scott McGohan 33:40

You know, Tony, I I come from that recovery background. Right. Have you ever prayed like instead of like like getting on your knees, you've ever prayed like in bed, like while you're laying there? Okay, just all the laziness, just out of laziness.

Tony Miltenberger 33:54

Yeah, yeah.

Scott McGohan 33:54

Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, man, I know I should get up and do this, but I'm too tired. I'm just gonna do it laying here. I'm just like, come on, come on, Scott. God's looking at you. He knows all that stuff anyway. You're too tired to get up. That's so funny. All right, thanks for admitting that.

Tony Miltenberger 34:11

Well, I I just think that there nobody who's listening to this podcast is thinking, man, today's the day that I want to ruin my marriage. Like, no one's going, uh-huh, today's the day that I want to lose my job. Today's the day that I want to alienate my kids for the next decade. Instead, what we do is we just start letting ourselves get distracted by the things in our life that are having an emotional spike in who we are. And so that's when we start to let the feelings drive the car. It's like, oh, it's like, oh, I just, you know, we stopped. Yeah, I do marriage coaching all the time. And people don't fall in and out of love, they fall in and out of commitment. But it's not commitment to monogamy. That's actually pretty easy. Commitment to the disciplines of what it takes to be married, commitment to dating, commitment to discussion, commitment to all of those kind of things. It's like, wow, like all of a sudden I just woke up one day and I just didn't realize who I was or what I was doing. And I I think it just happens to more people than than we recognize and and probably just you know, in any given season of our lives, we're just a couple of distractions away from being in a place that isn't gonna serve us well.

Scott McGohan 35:22

Well said. Well said. Yeah.

Wendy Roop 35:26

Tony, how did your how did you facing your wound wounds, right, help you become, you know, a more authentic leader um in in your journey?

Authentic Leadership And Amnesty Dinners

Tony Miltenberger 35:47

I'll say that the the number one thing you did is it lowered my judgment of other people. Right? Is it is it once I yeah, once I started realizing how messed up I was, well, if you're not as bad as me, then you're in good shape. So um yeah, I I would say I would say it goes back to that idea of grace, you know, and and the other the other thing is is um leading with the end in mind and not just the moment in mind. So it's a great example is um, you know, I have a I had a young teenage son who was growing up, and my wife and I have a goal in our marriage that we want to create a home that our kids want to come back to. That's our that's our 10-year North Star. If if you're familiar with EOS, that's our our North Star language, right? Like, so that's and so once my oldest son got to be about 16 or 17, I started to realize he's not me. And that created some problems for both of us. And so uh one of the things that we started to do is to create these things called amnesty dinners. And at an amnesty dinner, you can tell me anything you want and not get in trouble. Because again, I'm I'm I'm not parenting for the outcome, I'm parenting for the relationship. The long term, yeah, the long term, the tenure, the north star. And the same thing is true in your work is like, are are you just um it is what's the most important thing that you're leading for? And are the activities that you're leading for helping you get there or not? And so if you're leading for a culture that is keeps people around for decades and decades, then you better care more about their soul than you do the bottom line. Now, there are times in every every business where you have to make a call on whether or not that person's the right person. I get that, but there are ways to do that with grace, curiosity, and empathy. There are ways to do that with the person's heart and soul in mind, and still, you know, not be a jerk about it. Like, you know, Karen, you mentioned values. I think, I think that's really important. I think all of us need to have our values kind of decided upon. Mine are faithful, grateful, generous, and movement. And every year I create a scorecard on what those look like so that I can't negotiate with myself about whether or not I actually lived it out. Like, you know, John, John Mark Comer calls it uh um a rule of life, right? Pete's Cazero talks about this in emotionally healthy spirituality, both of great books. And it's this idea that like I want to have activities that I can actually score if I'm living out my values or not, because I know who I am. If left to my own devices, I'll actually just kind of manipulate the answers to get the results I want with my own values, which is sounds insane until you've actually been with me as I go through them, right? Like, did I, you know, one of the values, for example, is praying with my wife every day. That's really important underneath faithfulness. And so, did I do that? Um, three times a week. Yeah, I'll count it, right? If if again, if I didn't have numbers down, I could negotiate it pretty easily. So, you know, I I think that kind of goes into the idea that if you want to lead people well, you better get clear about who you are and you better get clear about what the end result is.

Wendy Roop 39:17

Yeah.

Karen Benoy Preston 39:18

And live in the authority of that, right? Step into that and and name it over and over and over again because that's where boundaries form. Otherwise, we have to build walls.

Everyone Is Wounded Plus EIScale.com

Wendy Roop 39:30

Yeah. Tony, what what else do you want our listeners to know about wisdom in the wound? Besides, of course, go out and get this book. What else do they need to know?

Tony Miltenberger 39:47

Uh you know, you guys have done a great job of asking questions and letting me ramble, so I appreciate that. I I would just say this. Um, you know, the closest people in your life right now, they're wounded people. You know, and and the people that you spend 40 hours, 50 hours a week with at the office, but also the person that you share a bed with or the people that you're trying to raise. And the the closer you can get to the idea that everyone is wounded, the easier it is to not judge or put shame on any of it. Conscious leadership, which I know we all prescribe to, is really just the gift of saying, humans are just messy, and we're just gonna get through this together. And um, you know, my hope and prayer is that this book will will do that for for people. And and the number one question I get is what if I don't know what my wound is? And so uh we actually created a a tool for people to use. It's all it's called EI Scale, the emotional intensity scale. We just call it EIScale.com. And there's um some long form questions that you can take there, and it will help you get a handle around your wounding and and give you some words. It's it's just a starting place. These things are nuanced over long seasons, but oftentimes people don't know where to start internally. So if that's you, eiscale.com is a tool that we've created to to help you lean into that.

Wendy Roop 41:20

Terrific.

Tony Miltenberger 41:21

That's cool.

Go Inside Question And Where To Find Tony

Wendy Roop 41:24

So every at the end of every call, we always um ask our listeners to go inside, right? So, you know, what is something? So, in other words, what is something they heard today um that we want them to walk away with to kind of do their own growth work? So, what would you invite them to go inside with based on what you've shared today?

Tony Miltenberger 41:52

Where is the last time I spiked above a six?

Wendy Roop 41:55

Oh, yes.

Tony Miltenberger 41:59

Where is the last time I spiked above a six and what was going on around me when that happened? You start there, and I think you'll find some really interesting things.

Wendy Roop 42:11

Yes. Wow. I think that's something that I will do. Starting to think myself. Yes. Um, Tony, where can our listeners find you?

Tony Miltenberger 42:25

Oh, I'm all over the interwebs. I I'm I'm really excited about uh I'm really excited about my podcast coming up this year, the Follow the Lead podcast. Uh so I would tell you to start there. Um, this year we're doing something brand new. We're taking the 12 most Google leadership questions and we're wrestling with one question a month. And um, and we're gonna look at it from a Christian leadership standpoint. So the the first question in January is how do I know if I'm a leader? And every month we're creating PDFs to go along with the podcast episode so that people can download it and really lean in. If you want a leadership transformation journey, um follow the number two lead podcast is is really gonna be, I'm really excited for this this year. And then um, and we've got a benchmark survey to start off in January. I'm just really excited about what God's doing and all of that stuff. And it'll it'll be um it'll be a part of a much bigger journey that I'm excited to take my tribe on, right? That's my tribe I call the bold ones. So the bold ones and I are on a journey of transformation in 2026.

Wendy Roop 43:39

Yes, I love it. And I just have to mention really quick, my brother is going with you. So tell the listeners where you are going in when is it 27?

Tony Miltenberger 43:49

27. So all of this is is connected to my next book. Um, and so we're gonna wrestle with 12 questions in 2026 on the podcast. I'm gonna write a chapter a month, and then in 2027, in January, uh Wendy's brother and I, Chef Todd, and I are uh along with a couple other people from Lydia's mission from Southbrook Church and um from South Africa, we're gonna climb Mount Kilimanjaro. Nice. And so uh so the working title of the book that's due out in 27 is 12 Questions to the Top. Awesome.

Wendy Roop 44:23

Oh, such exciting stuff. Wow.

Scott McGohan 44:27

I would love to do that, but I'm terrified of heights.

Karen Benoy Preston 44:31

I just don't even more, even more.

Scott McGohan 44:33

Yeah, it's a wound. It's a wound.

Wendy Roop 44:38

That won't be our next come on, buddy.

Scott McGohan 44:40

We got you, we got you.

Wendy Roop 44:41

Just come home. That'll be our next podcast episode.

Scott McGohan 44:44

Yeah, going up's not the problem. Because going up, you don't have to look down. Going down is the problem. You gotta look down.

Wendy Roop 44:50

Yeah, oh my gosh. Tony, thank you so much for being with us today. Um, you uh are doing amazing things in this world, and we appreciate the light that you bring. So thank you.

Tony Miltenberger 45:03

Thank you. What an honor it is to be here and um love love your guys' podcast and can't wait to see how it continues to grow and evolve.

Karen Benoy Preston 45:12

Thank you. Thank you so much. Awesome. Um great great insights. Lots of good nuggets taking away today.

Wendy Roop 45:20

Yeah, Scott, anything you have?

Scott McGohan 45:22

No, you just you I always say no and then I keep talking.

Wendy Roop 45:26

So I do that always.

Scott McGohan 45:28

We know that's gonna happen. Give you grants. Yeah, it's just you just you know, you just you just bring light to people, you know, and and and it wherever you go, uh you just bring hope. And uh, I'm just I'm I'm glad you're in my life. So I appreciate you. Same, bro. Thank you guys.

Wendy Roop 45:45

I'm thankful for we're all connected, and uh, we look forward to seeing um all of you listeners next time. And with that, uh see you soon.