Why Workplaces Feel Broken

Douglas Herbert 0:02

There's a real need, a need to address what's happening in organizations, not just nationally, but internationally. How do we help organizations address things like disengagement, burnout, uh, and productivity? So that was kind of the initial seedlings, if you will, of the thought process about how do we kind of put something together that can actually not be a band-aid for a compound fracture, but actually be something that can be sustainable.

Meet Douglas And Workday Awareness

Wendy Roop 0:33

Welcome back, everyone, to Culture is an inside job. We have a special guest with us today. And I am going to turn it over to Karen to make that introduction.

Karen Benoy Preston 0:44

Thanks, Wendy. So, Douglas, Herbert, we are very excited to welcome you here today, not only as a fellow IPEC graduate, but coach and leadership uh savant, let's say. Um and then let's just kind of lean in here. Tell us a little bit about yourself. What does workday awareness? Why does culture matter? Like, you know, all the goodies. Yeah.

Douglas Herbert 1:13

We're just gonna jump right into it. That sounds good. Sounds good. Well, first off, thanks everybody for for the invite. I'm really excited to be here. I've enjoyed watching your podcast in the past and and uh um really aligned with with pretty much everything that you guys talk about. So it's been it's a pleasure to be here today and show you all, right? Scott, y'all.

Karen Benoy Preston 1:35

That's right, we're all a little southern today. Georgia, Georgia.

Douglas Herbert 1:39

Um, so yeah, so real quickly, uh I'm a CEO founder of Poor Shift. Uh we have a flag uh flag shift uh uh uh flagship, thank you. It's Monday, um, offering that we have developed over the last few years called Workday Awareness, and it's a transformation ecosystem uh that helps leaders um see and shift you know all people are truly uh well showing up to work and and it helps them kind of be aware of that. And um uh it's basically a um helps the from a take things that are unseen and kind of makes them seen and uses practical tools, uh helps to build um, you know, kind of looking at these unseen dynamics and and with these tools uh build more engaged, uh energized, and affected teams. And so it's um it's not a better mousetrap. It's uh it's a whole new thing, it's a whole new way to look at how do we help organizations address things like disengagement, uh burnout, uh, and and productivity. And so that's the um, and that came from uh really uh uh several years. And you mentioned a moment ago, IPAC, that was one of the moments of uh clarity when I was first introduced to energy and how that uh how that kind of energy from a personal perspective. Um, and that kind of intersected with when I was brought up, both of my folks were um uh social workers. And so I was around so much of what I later found out to be was adlering psychology. And so um Lakina had that intersection when I learned about uh energy, personal energy through IPAP and my experiences that shaped me when I was younger. Uh, and then through my two and a half decades or so of uh corporate work, um, all kind of came together. And I was seeing how, wait a minute, there's certainly an opportunity here because there's a real, there's a real um a need that I think we can all agree, hence your podcast, a need to address what's happening in organizations, not just nationally, but internationally. And um, and so I kind of looked at this uh uh these variables and kind of put them all together and said, well, look at what's working today, what's not working, and what do we think that we can we see a gap here. And so that was kind of the uh initial seedlings, if you will, of of the thought process about why do we kind of put something together that can actually not be a band-aid for a compound fracture, but actually, you know, be something that can be sustainable. And so that that was the kind of the birth, if you will, of uh workday awareness where we are on this journey right now.

Karen Benoy Preston 4:38

Thanks for sharing. Um, I've really enjoyed working with you specifically on the development of this and really kind of getting it to that place of launching. In

The Workday Revolution As A Fable

Karen Benoy Preston 4:50

the meantime, you've also written a book. And in this book, I liken it to the five dysfunctions of a team by Patrick Lencioni, one of our one of our favorites, obviously, from a leadership perspective. And yours is very similar in that it has like that fable-like feel to it. It's very easy to read, it's easy to get into the story and understand the dysfunction pretty much right away, and how how the transition happened. Speak to us about your um like what what would our listeners here want to know about this book? And and for them to go pick this book up, what would inspire them to want to understand what you've got here in this little gem?

Douglas Herbert 5:35

Terrific. Thank you. Yeah, it's a little book, it's uh about an hour or so. It can take to read through it the first time. It's called The Workday Revolution. I don't know, that depends on how well people have a couple days more than an hour. But um, yeah, it it really the intent was to help um well help help put together something that it is a practical application of workday awareness to basically help readers, whether you're a uh business coach, a business consultant, a HR leader, or an employee who is just trying to, you know, kind of look at a different way. You know, how do how do we engage in work? How do I show up to work every day? Why why am I not why am I not happy at work? Why, why are, you know, why is you know this just not fulfilling? And so um, so the work day revolution is really about uh introducing a story uh about a typical organization and um and and how they kind of are challenged in the typical organization way with things like you know toxic leadership or engagement issues or uh lethargy, apathy, things like that, uh, and and introducing a brand new way to look at how do we address these things. And so the book takes the reader on a story, uh on a story of um of an individual who hears about it and uh and kind of slowly starts to ask the right questions, curiosity, right? We as far as coaches go, and how do you how do you kind of think about this and and piques people people's interest? And so you you are taken through this uh uh story about uh this journey of this person seeing the value and uh and slowly but surely kind of putting the toe in the water. And then as you get to the end of the book, you realize how uh this can actually help uh help create transformation in an organization uh through one, you know, one, two, three, four, five steps along the way.

Karen Benoy Preston 7:52

So

Why Awareness Must Be Nonjudgmental

Karen Benoy Preston 7:53

let's go back to the word this. What is this? What is the this that helps transformation?

Douglas Herbert 8:03

Awareness. Uh I think awareness, and you know, as uh you uh know Karen, uh one of the WDA's core principles, the first one, is awareness leads to change.

Karen Benoy Preston 8:17

Can't know what you don't know, right?

Douglas Herbert 8:19

And what you don't know, and uh and I think to underscore awareness, but I think more importantly, it's awareness without judgment leads to change because uh the right kind of change that we're looking for, because uh this is um the the challenge that we have is we have to in organizations today, we've had decades of conditioning on how people think that we're supposed to address this. We're supposed to address um uh dysfunction in the organizations, address disengagement, things like that, right? And so so that's part of the awareness is to help uh help see how do we unwind some of this stuff. Um, because that's one of the big challenges I see is that uh you know, organizations spend billions and billions and billions of dollars a year trying to address productivity, disengagement. And guess what? You know, I hate to use the old, you know, what's the definition of insanity, but you know, I think it's pretty appropriate.

Karen Benoy Preston 9:25

Yeah.

Douglas Herbert 9:26

Now that thing.

Karen Benoy Preston 9:27

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Douglas Herbert 9:29

No, but that's but I think that's that's where I guess this is a it's kind of a that's a that's a powerful word when we're trying to unpack um what we're we're trying to achieve uh when it comes to what what we all do, which is looking to help make organizations and workplaces better for everybody.

Karen Benoy Preston 9:49

So Scott, I want to bring you into this because I know that you know you've been here, you've you've you've seen dysfunction in an organization, you've you've transformed dysfunction in an organization. Um how does this where what are you seeing now in terms of this um the word awareness? What's the what's the magic in awareness?

Scott McGohan 10:22

Wow, that's a big question. You know, I think looking back, and I'm just gonna go back in time. You know, I think there's just everything which is based on results. So it's the it's the output. So what's the exhaust? What's the exhaust of this machine? And you know, without much regard to the consequences. And I think today there's there's there's just there's a little more empathy in regards to what how how are we behaving and how is that outp happening inside of the organization. And organizations that don't understand that are gonna pay a really heavy price. Because a new generation isn't gonna tolerate that very long. Because they don't stay very long. They don't stay there very long, period. Yeah, for a host of reasons. And um you know, big leaders that are paid for output that are ignorant of how we got there and won't pay attention to toxic destructive heroes and are ignorant of that uh or disengagement or you know, the culture of the organization won't last long um either. Inside of great organizations. They'll last in bad ones. There's a lot of bad ones. They'll survive there for sure. And unfortunately it it's uh it it I I think our culture's evolving. I I think it I think it's changing. I think the I think the heart of people, I think it is. And I mean, I'm a Pollyanna, you know, I write a unicorn every day. So maybe I've just always believed that, but that's what I believe today.

Karen Benoy Preston 12:25

So um, Wendy, how about you? What about awareness is magic?

Wendy Roop 12:35

We can't lead anybody else well until we have a deep level of awareness. And that's in our home and that's in our organizations, that's you know, that's everywhere. So the more that we have a sense, a deeper sense of how we're showing up in the world, um, and that we have a choice in that, right? I think that's the thing that all of us have discovered going through IPEC and even Scott and and being in this with us is that I think we forget how we have a choice in how we're, you know, responding. So being aware and then having a choice. And um, yes, Douglas, that's what you know, Karen's has also shared some of your work with me and and um, you know, the what you have shared with us. We're just so thankful, you know, for what you're doing. And it goes so right along with what we've been talking about. You know, just sharing um at the beginning when we started this podcast, we shared with everybody um, you know, the seven levels of energy and and so forth. And you just taking that work and diving even deeper into it. Um, and I'm I'm curious, and you've mentioned uh a couple of things at a high level, but what has been the biggest impact that you've seen so far in this work?

Douglas Herbert 13:54

Well, I mean, I think the um I think you know it's it's new, right? It's new. It's this is um this is still kind of in the early stages, which is very exciting. But the uh the impact uh are are the are the aha moments that uh when I have the opportunity to talk to people about it and engage with uh uh like-minded professionals about it. Um those are what those are what is really encouraging. It's it's the uh it's the one of the reality checks of being in a position where uh you know people kind of, you know, like you just mentioned, Wendy, people realize, wait a minute, I have a choice. You know, I'll wait a minute. You know, there is there is the I don't have to just kind of slog through this. And and that's where I think it's uh it's important from uh you know, recognizing that for so long we've we've allowed the external one of accountability to drive so much of the behavior in organizations, external meaning like the the leadership kind of sitting up there. Uh and what what what we look at from workday awareness is how do we shift that from external accountability to personal responsibility? Because at the end of the day, for sustained change, as we all know, um, it really comes to back to the individual and and having those aha moments. We call them the Wadassi effect, where they basically say, Oh, wow, okay, I'm showing up this way. Uh yeah, I uh I'm I'm kind of being okay. Well, how do I, you know, if this isn't honoring where I need to be right now, okay. Now I all of a sudden have tools to understand how do I shift from now, right? Because, you know, energy and and you know, we we talked about how you know we'll get we can get in links in a minute, but around the idea of of labels, uh, you know, and and and and getting stuck and and kind of limitations is what I think a lot of the people get challenged with today in organizations where they kind of feel like, well, you know, it kind of says that that's all I'm really gonna be able to do. So okay, right. And so so it kind of boxes people in. So I think those are some of the things, Wendy, when it comes to uh, you know, some of these early engagements, which make it very exciting to see, okay, we do really do have something different here.

Wadasi And The Three Pillars

Karen Benoy Preston 16:22

Yeah, let's go to those tools because that's the one thing that I want you to be able to share with our listeners here is workday awareness is not only an ecosystem, but there's also an amazing tool. And you talked about the Wadasi effect and um the ability for the individual to learn, you know, to have that self-awareness and recognize how they're showing up and options to make some adjustments in that. So what is Wadasi? Tell us what Wadasi is and why would somebody want to have that information and how do they get it?

Douglas Herbert 17:02

Right. Well, that's right. Um, well, uh Wadasi stands for Workday Awareness State Indicator. So it's Wadasi, and it's a Wadasi effect. It's basically the uh we have as part of the ecosystem, we have uh uh entry points into the broader ecosystem, and those are uh the reports that are both for the individual employee as well as the leadership, and um they uh they provide data points. They the individual report, it's a Wadasi report, and it's a report that the employee has the option to receive. They don't have to, but it's an option too. It's personal, it's confidential. Uh, the information is um uh there for their own again, growth and insight and awareness, and we position it as such, and so it's it's it's a very powerful tool for them to have. And that's kind of the again, the entry point for the individual, and that kind of opens it all up. It kind of it's the baseline. It's like, okay, once I understand, and it's eight different type eight different uh um uh uh state indicators that actually have uh a combination of three different um uh it's it's let me back up a second because I think it would be helpful to understand that that Wadasi uh is the practical application of the broader understanding of how we approach it, which is through the resolute truth of energy dynamics, which is energy is foundational, energy is never static, and energy can be shifted with intention. And so the practical application and expression of that is through the three pillars of workday awareness, which is mindset, participation, and physical energy. And so those three pillars, each of them have uh uh spectrums attached to that. And uh, for example, as you'll all be familiar with, from a mindset perspective, the spectrum is catabolic to anabolic. Uh participation, engage, disengage, and physical energy is lethargic. Um, you know, um, and and that's anyway, that's I just had a brain moment just then. Um it's been thousands of times I've said this. Uh, in any case, the the spectrum runs across each of these uh and is the combination of each of those uh along the spectrum that produces the state indicator. And it's important to recognize it's a state indicator, not a type indicator. And this was part of the evolution of this is understanding how do we best express this, because what we what we what we recognize it's not a label, it's uh it's a state. It's basically where that person shows up at that moment. And so it's empowering that person to say, okay, I happen to be at this moment, but if this isn't making sense for me, I can learn, I can have these tools to shift away from that. Um, and so that's where the Wadossi effect comes in. It's it's it's empowering that individual to do that. And it opens up, like I said, into the broader ecosystem. It has the frameworks, has the all these other tool sets that with our workday awareness uh practitioners helping implement this in organizations, that's where they support that effort with the individual toy. On that note, is that the other part of it, which is the one-two punch, it's the leadership reports that this information is is fed up through anonymized data points to the leadership reports. And there's a variety of those available for the leadership of the organization, and that basically gives a very holistic snapshot across a variety of metrics of how the organization is showing up with the leadership. Yeah, and uh uh so it's very exciting. We have a WDA matrix, which is a quadrant that it basically can map that out for people. So it's it's an opportunity for not just the uh employees to take in ownership over how they're showing up and tools to do that, but it's also uh an opportunity for the leadership to have something tangible where they can actually have something translated, okay, you know, ROIs, all the things that they like to talk about and look at, that information is available for them as well. So that's kind of what in a nutshell where these reports feed into the broader workday awareness ecosystem.

Wendy Roop 21:43

Yeah. I like how it's individual, but then it gets broader from the perspective of probably team and organization. Like right.

Douglas Herbert 21:53

Yeah, yeah. It it can be looked at individual, team, organization. There's a variety of ways to look at it. On the uh the structure of the organization, how flat, uh, how many levels of hierarchy they're involved. So it's a variety of ways that the organizations can look at it. But I think the most important thing is is uh again around the empowerment of the individual, where at the end of the day, the individual uh has the ability to accept change.

Wendy Roop 22:23

Which goes back to why we were talking about awareness, right? Like what that means and the importance of it of a person, because um, gosh, the I'll use the word power, but the power that holds, right? The impact that that can have when just one person is aware. Yeah.

Scott McGohan 22:40

I love that. You know, I had in in my experience. You know, I told someone, uh, and I work with a lot of people in recovery. And I told someone one time, I said, I don't know why I did that. And he said, Yeah, you do. And I was like, Well, what do you mean? He's like, Well, you don't do anything without getting paid back. I'm like, I don't understand. He goes, Yeah, you don't want to understand. I was like, So help me understand that. So it's just kind of like unpacking that and understanding that inside of you know the energy that I brought into that. So I got paid back for that, for that action. Right, and I got paid back for that reaction. And what you're talking about, and this might be a really immature way to bring this up, but I I think what's super interesting about this, especially in the manufacturing world, is I see so much intentionality with plant equipment, so much intentionality in regards to logistics, so much intentionality in regards to managing depreciation and measuring all of that. And what if there is so much intentionality around measuring the workforce and where the workforce is?

Douglas Herbert 23:56

Your workforce is depreciating, how's your workforce feeling?

Scott McGohan 24:00

Right? Right moving logistically, where are they? Right? So where they're in in regards to their energy. So I think it's really I think it's just a really interesting concept that you're bringing to the table and for leaders to really kind of understand that in a in in a global way, right? So from an organization from the from from the top, uh from the top down. And then what makes it even more compelling and more powerful is is just not that, but it's more the inner the individual power and the individual maybe permission, right? Where I get to change that. I get to change my energy like right, like right now. I don't have to be a jerk the next 30 seconds. I was the last 30 or the last five hours. So the last 20 years, yeah, it's it's super interesting.

Wendy Roop 24:53

Yeah, and Scott, to your point, no, no matter the circumstances, right? Like I get to show up in a very powerful way, no no matter what's happening around me. And I'm not saying that's easy, right? That takes such intentionality for all of us.

Douglas Herbert 25:09

Um right, and I think that uh it's not just understanding how you're showing up as an individual, but be but you are you all of a sudden now start understanding and getting the awareness about of how other people show up, right? And how and and and actually being able to really have a better indicational and idea of okay, okay, that's that person showing up. And that's part of what we call a common conversation framework. It's one of the one of the things that's part of the ecosystem, and it's helping people uh uh come around a common framework of conversation because one thing we know right now, and and still to this day, people are hypersensitive on, you know, should I talk about this? Should I not? What if I say this? Oh, what if I say this the wrong way? Or, you know, things like that, right? So we have a really hypersensitive challenge within organizations that unfortunately get people into trouble. Uh, and um sometimes. And so that's part of that is is helping people kind of come around this common conversation where someone says, you know, like we talk about, well, you know, it's vigorous, anabolically engaged. That's BAA, for example. That's one of the um state indicators. All of a sudden now everyone can kind of come around and say, okay, hey, you know, I'm I'm I'm kind of lethargic, I'm feeling a little lethargic today. I'm feeling a little bit, you know, my my energy is not quite there. Boy, you know, Bob, when you when I saw you this morning, you it felt kind of like your energy was kind of dragging a little bit. Everything okay? Uh you know, all of a sudden you start introducing this conversation that that brings down these walls of defensiveness. So I think that's really uh powerful because you know, at the end of the day, uh, as we all know, um, energy is contagious, both good energy and challenging energy, right? So disengagement and uh and uh dysfunction and and all the things that come along with that, that's a contagion, it's not a personal thing in organizations, it's contagious.

Wendy Roop 27:12

Yeah.

Douglas Herbert 27:12

And so so we're trying to flip that script to be able to help people become aware of that. And and and that's the you know, part of the Wadasi effect. It's kind of pushing that out. Uh, and you know, Scott, it was funny when you mentioned about the output a few minutes ago. I uh it made me think of one of the things I I think about when I when I uh it's a it's a golf, uh I think about golf, and it's like uh in today's organizations, it's um I I find far too often that uh people it's like trying to play golf in a hurricane where you have the majority of people paying attention to the leaderboard and really not thinking about the wind conditions, right? And and that's that and I think that's the challenge that we have right now, right? Is that again back to being aware. So anyway.

Karen Benoy Preston 28:04

Douglas,

Implementation Steps And Data Privacy

Karen Benoy Preston 28:05

walk us through an individual, like let's say you're um let's say the organization has brought work day awareness into the organization, and there's a leader and their team, and the leader might have some interest in assessing the individuals on this team. Walk us through the process and what's expected once that report is generated, and the process from there in terms of any coaching and then reassessing and things like that.

Wendy Roop 28:49

Yeah.

Douglas Herbert 28:50

It's uh well, practically speaking, there has to be information that's input initially, right, to get things going. And that's where the individual employees uh uh participate in an online. Basically, it's 101 statements or questions that they go through. And it covers a variety of categories that we want to uh address uh when it comes to you know what we're looking to become aware about and what the you know, we want the organization and the individual to become aware about. Uh, once that information is put in, the uh and that's the employee chooses to have a their own personal report sent to them, it gets sent to them. Now, one of the key uh things to keep in mind is that one of the differences is uh we would not send the report to the uh whether it's the workday awareness practitioner or the manager or the leader, the report goes directly to the employee. It's their information, it's their and it's it's so whether they choose to share that or not, it's up to them. So that's one of the key differences that you'll find right off the bat is that we ensure the that that is because we all know that people participate in any of these activities and organizations insofar as they believe that their information is kept confident and kept confidential and and anonymous, right? So employing agent surveys and such are always challenged because people don't have much trust that it's not going to come back and bite them. So that's the first thing, I think, from just an understanding of how we approach it so seriously. So 11-digit hexadecimal um uh code that's attached to each of the reports. So the individual's normals are not even on it. Uh, and then that information is fed up through and it's uh um aggregated into anonymous data points that get set up into the leadership reports, and there's a variety of those that are available. And so once those individuals get those reports, then it is about uh having that uh uh debrief. We have an online debrief that's available for the individual. Uh, there is that uh intention, which is you say, hey, let's get together as a team, let's sit down and you can have a facilitator like our workday awareness practitioner or in-house advocate that uh helps kind of have this conversation. And that's where the common conversation frameworks gets introduced, where it's kind of like, let's sit down and you know, talk about this stuff and let's let's think about it, not having to show your cards, right? But you can still have a conversation if you choose to. And so that's where the introduction is. And so we believe that it's not about taking uh a giant um, you know, kind of a thing, a 10-gallon thing of ice water and pouring it over the head of the organization at once. It's really about introducing it in a way that helps build the momentum uh and helps, again, if we believe energy is contagious, then that's part of the way we look at it as it comes, it builds on itself. So that's how that works. And so once we reach a point, Karen, where we have where there's enough data that's been pulled in to ensure anonymity, then that's where it gets put into an actual output for the leadership, whatever leadership report that they choose to have based on the size and scope and the complexity of the organization. Uh, and uh, and so that's that's kind of the and then everything is built from that. And and I and I generally try not to use the word assessment because it's not really so much an assessment as it is an awareness. And and so that's because remember, and the the word assessment connotates for a lot of people, okay, you know, assessment, label, limits, judgment. So we try to steer away from that. But yeah, that's kind of the initial building blocks of it, and then it it builds along from there, and then there's a phase one and a phase two, depends on you know, the the ongoing, because really when we think about anything, the one challenge, and again, I'm a I'm a believer of assessments, don't get me wrong. My again, I mentioned my folks were social workers, my mom was a um Myers Briggs practitioner. I I took my first one, I think I was in like middle school, so I get it. That said, the challenges um not just a mention of of labels um and stick to you, but it's it's really how do you push something that you want to get to to permeate through organizations to really uh become part of the culture within an organization. And it's not just a one-stop shop, you know, it's something that has to uh be uh you know taken on as an ownership, as a personal kind of thing individually, and then collectively as a leadership that said, yeah, this makes sense because we can now recognize. And guess what? It's a really interesting tool from a leadership because when you have a snapshot, like when we did one of our pilots last year, they had recently had a um uh a um they just recently had had acquired another organization. And so when they looked at the WDA matrix, they saw where these showed up on this, and it was a lot of disengagement uh elements and such. And so we had that conversation is that well, you know, that's not so surprising because you then look at what's happening currently in the organization, and you can kind of see that reflection, which really becomes a powerful tool to our to leadership to see that. So, anyway, that's kind of the steps of that, Gary. And uh, you know, we can go on for a long time to get into the weeds in it, but hopefully that gives you a good indication of how the initial steps uh happen.

Karen Benoy Preston 34:42

Yeah, thanks, Douglas. So if uh a leader wanted to get in touch with you to learn more, how would they get in touch with you?

Douglas Herbert 34:51

Well, dherbert at uh core shift.com, they can go to workdayawareness.com, they can uh there's there's free resources through our WDA Global Alliance. That's one of our kind of nonprofit elements, which because again, ultimately our goal is to is to help bring awareness, energy awareness into organizations. Uh and um Scott, you had mentioned it's not just national, it's global. It's it's it's you know, it's everywhere. So so there's free resources on that that they can that employees can take advantage of. If you're interested in learning more about just you know my energy level kind of thing, there's there was a quiz that can be taken. Uh, but yeah, definitely uh they can reach out to me directly, and uh, we've got our our certified practitioners that are available to uh to help uh move things into organizations, and uh so we're really excited about that.

Karen Benoy Preston 35:48

I was just gonna say, what questions do you have? I love it. Thank you, Karen.

Wendy Roop 35:51

Thanks. Uh we're we're usually really good about seeing when people are stepping in. Okay, so Douglas, um, you know, you've mentioned some of the impacts, you know, several of the impacts of this, but when you think of culture, um, obviously our podcast being Culture is an inside job, uh, you know, both whether it's personally, whether it's professionally, et cetera. What

Culture As Purpose And Shared Worth

Wendy Roop 36:14

is the one, like if there was one like the biggest impact that you hope this work makes in the world when it comes to culture, what might that be?

Douglas Herbert 36:27

Wow. Well, as you mentioned, you know, your your the name of your podcast is really kind of the a reflection directly of why workday awareness was created, was uh because we've we believed that uh the traditional way that that organizations addressed uh productivity, for example, because again, they're in most of these organizations are in the business to make money, uh, is through structure and behavior and uh you know, moving people around, things like that. And what we believe is that it's through really the way you impact that is through uh attitudinal awareness and culture. And so culture really is that key. And and what does that mean from uh um, you know, you you address those two because that's where you get the knockoff effect, we believe, if you address them in the way of uh how people show up, and you know, because we know that the culture culture is not about putting another vending machine into the work drink, right? Culture is not about putting uh you know a uh uh uh workout room in, right? I mean, it's and that's the challenge that people don't seem to understand it's when I think of culture and the impact. I think of, and what I would like to see is it's it is back to, and I I use the word awareness a lot, but it is back to uh uh individuals who who at the end of the day um understand and have clarity as to why they're showing up to work. I mean, Alfred Adler talks about the you know, vertical relationships versus horizontal relationships, the the division of work. You know, as a species, work is part of what we need to do. And so it's it's so from a culture perspective, how do we impact that? It's it's having people understand uh not just why I'm showing up to work, but that it's it's making an impact and that it's and that there's purpose behind that and what I'm doing. Uh and my role matters just as much as the janitor as the role of the CEO. Yeah, love that. And and unfortunately, in in organizations today, when we call vertical logic, where we have those, you know, I'm above him, she's above, she's gender me, uh, you know, mandates, um, you know, competitiveness versus collaboration, we have all that mix over here. And so so when I think of culture, again, I think of that uh being at the individual level, uh, but understanding that I'm just as important as everybody else, I have purpose, uh, and I matter. And uh and that's uh in that I think when you have that collective, and that and that's what really uh impacts the culture of an organization. And you know, and we've seen all this ask before, we know happiness matters. Uh it it impacts ultimately how well organizations do and thrive. Not just not just make hit numbers, but actually thrive. Um so anyway, hopefully that answers your question.

Wendy Roop 39:31

It does. Thank you.

Scott McGohan 39:33

Scott, anything else to add or I think probably the number of uh how about somebody that you've met with that like says like I love everything you're I don't have time to do. I don't have time to do this. Like what what should what what what what do you say to them?

Douglas Herbert 39:56

Well if you have about eight minutes, uh, which is what it takes to get the ball rolling, uh, and for someone who doesn't have eight minutes, I then question their time management. Or I or or I question uh that I didn't do a good enough job understanding that uh that they that they have something there that that can be impacted by what we're doing.

Scott McGohan 40:19

So yeah, I think one of the things too is I don't know, and I've just encouraged a lot of leaders, including, you know, I mean the work's always gonna get done if you spend time with the people. But if you sit on your desk and then you sit there with your door locked or shut, and you just you know, you just hoard it up with your C-suite, then good luck. But just spend time with the people. And it's it it's actually it is not rocket science, it's not that complicated. But for some strange reason, a lot of us want to make it really, really complicated.

Douglas Herbert 41:00

Well, I think I think that's a great point. I wrote an article recently in our in our uh energy shift newsletters and uh talked about just that, about the the challenge that uh the leadership has. Um and I think part of it too, Scott, is that it's it's a condition. It's it's you're taught, it's it's it's a learned behavior for a lot of leaders. It's kind of how it was done, so this is how we do it kind of stuff. And it's kind of passed along almost. Um, but it's it's that reality that the vulnerability is an a key element of of true leadership. Well, and and to be able to recognize that you you don't have to uh always be polishing something to the point of perfection. It's really about uh presence, to your point, about being able to say, look, I'm here, I'm available, you know, and and and I think so I would certainly agree with you that that's one of the challenges that uh because you know it's safe. Uh, for a lot of leaders, it's safe to be locked in behind the door, right? Because as we all know, you know, people put on big faces, and uh a lot of people that have these big faces, particularly the toxic ones, are unfortunately really uh uh in themselves fairly insecure in how they how they engage with people. So that's my experience.

Scott McGohan 42:22

My dad, excuse me, my dad had somebody that it's so funny. This guy called them and his boss had told him to tell my dad something. And my dad was like, that's fantastic. So why don't you have I'm not gonna say any names, but why don't you have so-and-so just call me and tell him myself himself. And he said, I don't think he's gonna do that. And he goes, I didn't think he's gonna do that either. But we'll do that when he calls me. So I gotta go. It's just like the cowardness of just the willingness just to have a tough conversation is is uh yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's it's just so true.

Douglas Herbert 43:08

And I think the challenge too is that is that um it wasn't as if uh things uh happened all of a sudden, it's that it's that buildup, right? Over over weeks, uh deck in some cases entire careers of of people uh unwilling to step out. And and then things harden and it gets more and more challenging. Um and yeah, so that's part of the I think the the breakthrough and the and and as we think about the, as you mentioned before, the next generations that come up, uh the obvious unique challenges that they have coming into the workforce. Um I think you know one of the benefits of of the internet and social media is people can come in, I think in some ways with with almost too much information that helps kind of give them a perspective. perspective of, okay, I've been an intern for two weeks, it's time for me to be CEO. Right? So it could, it works both ways. But but I think that's where it's really interesting is to see how do we how do we show the value for those leaders that do have the door closed, that do operate in silos, that do sit with the C-suite and believe that's really everyone else is kind of expendable to what they think about and how they work and operate. And how do we break through that point of, you know, how do we get over that moat, if you will, that's been that's been put in water slow. And I think that's part of where it's for me at least as I look at workday awareness, it's about, you know, it's the individuals. It's that it's that contagious energy that is seen building up. And it's like all of a sudden, okay, things are happening. So you don't have to look at the leadership to be the ones that make change in organizations.

Wendy Roop 44:58

Yeah.

Go Inside Prompt And Closing

Wendy Roop 44:59

Douglas um uh when we wrap up all of our episodes we ask the question we ask our listeners to go inside and so what we mean by that is you know um we ask them to go inside to reflect on what they just heard today and you know we're asking them to be intentional about something. So as you think about that, what would you ask our listeners especially the those who are leading organizations and teams and so forth what would you ask them to go inside about and be intentional about around this work I would I would say that the the um taking the time to understand how they personally are showing up to work every day um how they are approaching it or how they're um how how they engage with their colleagues um how they take care of themselves um you know are they out till three in the morning the night before and then show up to work alone and then kind of just you know from a standpoint of uh well again back to awareness really just being able to pause and say okay is this honoring how I you know think it I I am I honoring my my time that I spend doing this because at the end of the day other than sleeping this is the most that all of us spend the most time we do anything else including being with our families is being at work.

Douglas Herbert 46:51

And so I think it's important to treat that with as much uh intention and and insight uh as we do anything else in our in our life because I I I'm a firm believer that that um work doesn't just stop when you leave work uh the your attitudes and how you think about stuff uh it you know it it our life is our life and and and it's it it ble everything bleeds over to everything else and so I think it's important to to address something very intentionally and so I would encourage that I think uh Wendy when it comes to you know taking the next two or three small steps uh because it's a very powerful you know awareness is a very powerful thing um and self-reflection thank you yeah so check out uh Douglas um his work and um and he'll his information should be in our show notes and thank you Douglass for being here with us today and uh we appreciate you we appreciate the difference that you're making in this world because it does matter and uh with that we hope that we see all of you next time on Culture is an inside job.

Wendy Roop 48:07

Have a great day