Wendy Roop: 0:00

Hey everyone. Today we're excited to welcome Ryan Hawk, a fellow Dayton, Ohio native and thought leader who Scott and I have had the pleasure of crossing paths with multiple times over the past eight years. So, as the host of the highly acclaimed podcast, the Learning Leader Show, ryan has interviewed over 600 of the world's most influential leaders, distilling their insights into actionable wisdom for leaders at all stages. His personal journey from college quarterback to corporate executive and now to a sought-after speaker and author, exemplifies the transformative power of self-leadership and continuous growth. Ryan's books Welcome to Management, the Pursuit of Excellence and the Score that Matters resonate deeply with our mission here on Culture is an Inside Job. We're excited to dive into Ryan's story and perspectives on authentic leadership, personal growth and building thriving work cultures. Welcome back to Culture is an Inside Job, everyone, it's so good to see you, scott and Karen. As always, how you doing, my friends?

Scott McGohan: 1:03

Well.

Karen Benoy Preston: 1:10

Scott's like well, I could say fine, well, that's not a well, yeah good. Or a well, not so good, it's just a truth, truth matters. Yeah it does.

Wendy Roop: 1:25

My mama always said if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all, so I'm guessing that, well, we'll hope you feel better by the end of this. We've got Ryan Hawk with us today. Everyone, hey

Ryan Hawk: 1:40

Hey Wendy.

Wendy Roop: 1:42

Yeah, absolutely, we're excited because, well, I was super excited just because, you know, I just got off being at retreat with you at the Learning Leaders Circle Summit, which was absolutely amazing. We could have probably a whole episode on that, but so it's just fun, right, we're all well. You, scott, and I, you know, are from this Dayton area and, just having that connection, you and I met, probably I was trying to think about this, right, I was at CareSource when we met and so that's probably 10-ish years ago and you were just stepping into what you're doing now. And that was fun because you were, you know, in just kind of as you do, right, just learning and trying to take in as much as you can about you know leadership, so you can provide the level of service and what you do from a podcaster's perspective and also just helping other people be better. And then, scott, scott, how did you meet Ryan?

Scott McGohan: 2:46

Gosh, we had lunch. I think, gosh, it's been, it's probably been 10 years, uh, and then your dad has this cable show, right? I think mine did a cable show, yeah. Yeah he did and, uh, your dad was nice enough to have me on and your your dad, he's an icon here in Dayton and he was in sales leadership at Lexus. I believe Is that correct.

Wendy Roop: 3:10

Yeah, that's right.

Scott McGohan: 3:11

Yeah, and just a super genuine guy, really nice, super kind to me, and I was exploring kind of I had these thoughts of writing a book and then obviously, right, you're such a, you're such a successful author and I met you when you kind of went through this first PVC pipe of writing your first book and you gave me, you gave me, really good advice. Some of it I took, some of it I didn't, but you're, you're, you're much more successful in that realm, uh, than I am. And then you you've just always done a really good job of keeping you know Dayton Ohio, uh, keeping your roots here and, uh, just always making um, the, the folks here in in uh in town, feel feel really welcome and so I I appreciate all the, all the gifts you gave me and I appreciate that.

Ryan Hawk: 4:02

Sure, Thank you. Anytime you get to talk about my dad, I could go forever, so I'll I'll let you guys run the show, but I would. I would go off on tangents about my love and admiration for him. I was just one on a long walk with him yesterday, at Forestfield park actually. So, uh, they live half a year in Florida. So it's different for us as kids, Cause we used to have them all year round and now we only have them half the year. So it's, um, it's a little bit different. We try to. We try to make the most of this now warmer part of the year in Ohio when they're, when they're back in town.

Wendy Roop: 4:31

That's amazing. I just I love hearing about you, know your relationship and how much you care about them, um, and I have a question. I have a question for you around, um, probably maybe around that, but we'll see where it goes. But let me just kick it off, too, by saying congratulations on 10 years of your podcast. Thank, you.

Wendy Roop: 4:52

You know that is just something to really celebrate. For those of you that haven't heard Ryan's podcast before, it's called the Learning Leader Show, and I mean seriously people. You know the amazing thought leaders who you've had on that and I know you well enough to know you have worked your butt off for that and and so you know just a little bit of information for people on that too, because of course, I was doing my homework. But just you know you have been named an Apple podcast bestseller for the last four years. I don't even know if you know this, ryan, just you know you have been named an Apple podcast bestseller for the last four years. I don't even know if you know this, ryan, no, you do.

Wendy Roop: 5:29

And then number one business podcast, you know in the world earning, earning millions of downloads every year. So that we aspire to that, ryan. Right, we aspire to that. So I want to ask you a question, though, about your, about what you're doing now around your podcast and the learning leader, even the circles, and all you know all the things that you're doing. But I'm curious how does that really feel to be where you are with your podcast now and how has that impacted you and how do you think? What kind of impact has it had on other people From your perspective?

Ryan Hawk: 6:13

I mean, it's my life. It's what I dedicate my life to. It's the top priority outside of, certainly, my family. So it's also my favorite thing in the world to do to have a deep, long form conversation with a person far wiser than me, where I could chase my curiosity and obsessions with great rigor. There's nothing cooler than that. For me at least, it's a job I would never retire from. It's something I'll do for the rest of my life. I'm obsessed.

Ryan Hawk: 6:40

I love it, not only the act of doing it, but the act of preparing for it, all of the hours that goes into it, quietly sitting here, reading, thinking of ideas, outlining right, trying to get impressive guests the whole process. I love every part of it. So I just feel honestly, wendy, like insanely lucky to be able to do the thing that I want to do every day, in that we figure out a way to build a business off the back of my favorite thing in the world to do. I mean, I don't, I I realized like that's a massive privilege. There's a there's an insane amount of luck involved. Um, I just try not to take it for granted and I think the reward for me is that I get to keep doing it. So, um, you know, I I try to, I try to be, I try to work really hard at it. I don't, I don't, I don't. It's not easy and it's. Some people say like if you find what you love, you'll never work a day in your life, and that is absolutely not true. I work insanely hard at it, but it's definitely not a job. I love it and I feel this just deep sense of good fortune and good luck, um, that I get to do it and so I just want to keep doing it. So that's part of what, how, um why I put so much into it.

Ryan Hawk: 7:53

As far as how it impacts other people, I mean, that's the juice. That's what it's all about, um, to get to get notes from people, to see them in person, to hear from them that it's changed their lives. It's made them a better mom or dad, it's made them a better husband or wife, it's made them better in their communities. You know it started out as like a business show. It's still a business show, but I get more comments about their personal lives than I do their professional lives, and I think that's that's the coolest thing ever. I get emails or DMS from the wives of listeners, or husbands of listeners, to say that it's changed their family lives. It's changed their, their, their conversations they have at dinner. I mean, how cool is that?

Ryan Hawk: 8:27

So, uh, I feel a big responsibility to that. I feel, um, um, again, a sense of gratitude that people care enough to invest their most valuable resource, their time, in it. Uh, I take it all real, real, seriously. So, um, um, I want to keep working hard at it because I know that it could impact people, and that's really what I'm here to do. That's like why I exist on this planet. So I'm trying to make the most of the good fortune and then get better and better and better and better, so that it can keep impacting people in a big way. But certainly just a big sense of gratitude for it all.

Wendy Roop: 9:00

Yeah, absolutely, and you have definitely gotten better and better and better. It's fun.

Ryan Hawk: 9:16

I'm not sure how you think about when you listen to, like, your first few podcasts in comparison to now, but isn't that what it? Those Um, and yeah, I'm embarrassed and I cringe at times, but I think that's part of the process. Um, if, if, if I, if I sounded exactly the same or said the same stuff or whatever, then that that that's, that's an indicator that I'm not growing. So that would be a bad thing. So I think you kind of have to go through some of the cringe, uh, of your your previous self in order to ensure that you're you're getting better and growing.

Wendy Roop: 9:50

Yeah, we definitely go through the cringe, don't? We team definitely go through the cringe.

Scott McGohan: 9:55

Um, go ahead, Scott, yeah, I think. Right, you know one thing too, I one. I appreciate your, your, uh, humility too, but I, you know, and thinking this morning about talking to you too, I, you know, I think, like there's one word is just your tenacity.

Scott McGohan: 10:06

Like I don't think people really understand just how relentless like you are, um, and just how intentional you are, and I know you, I, in what you said is in regards to luck and and I and I I appreciate the humility and all of that, uh, uh, but just the dedication to lift up where you are to where you are today is just a testament. And and maybe going back to um, going back to your dad, so like, maybe, like what's a few things that your dad like really really taught you that are really important to you today?

Ryan Hawk: 10:45

Yeah well, scott, it's interesting that you talk about tenacity and relentless work ethic. I feel like you would know that as well as anybody, because you know what it's like trying to build a business, and there's so much of it that people don't see that you had to do to build Bego, bray, bednar and everything else you've done in your life. So when you've done it, you can sense it and see it. When somebody else is trying to do it Versus, if you haven't done it, you may not understand what it takes. And so, scott, I think that's what I come across from you, talking about the tenacity, the relentless work ethic, the consistency of getting after it every day for a decade plus. That's kind of what it takes to get to whatever spot that you're in. As far as my dad um, you know he is more of a leadership, is caught than taught type of a person, um, meaning, uh, he just lives it and I think we just kind of watch and then do our best to to live up to that standard, which none of us ever will but will certainly aspire to. Of my four core values of thoughtful, thankful, curious and consistent I would say the one I get the most from my dad is consistency. I think my younger brother, aj, probably gets the same value from him. If you looked at what's probably helped us be good at whatever it is that we've chosen to do, and that's just the ability to get up and get after every day. It's the least sexy word. You know, scott, you probably the same thing.

Ryan Hawk: 12:13

At the end of keynotes. You get asked questions hey, you know what's the hack, or what's the thing I can do, or how can I get better or whatever. No-transcript it. The other thing, too, is I have I honestly I have never met a person in my life that knows my dad, that doesn't love him. Think about like, like, like, like that that they don't rave about him every time they talk to me, like this happens all almost not daily, but it happens a lot, especially now that he plays golf at ncr every day, so he's meeting a lot more people and a lot more people are exposed to him. It's just like it happens constantly and I just have that kind of approval rating because you're a kind, compassionate, caring, smart, caring, smart, hardworking person, dude.

Ryan Hawk: 13:28

That's a lot, that is a lot of stuff and it's all super cool, but it also, like the luck thing is not like a fake humility. It's genuine, because you don't get to choose your parents, you don't get to pick who had you, and so that is literally pure luck it is. I've done nothing to earn that. I don't deserve that, but I think there is actually a responsibility. When you've been given a lot, you should give a lot, and that's taken me some years to realize, but that's, that's a real thing. So if you are born into a good situation, it is your mission, at least in my mind, to to go out there and and help other people to go out there and be of service, to go out there and and and be a value add to other people. And, uh, I'm just trying to do that. I don't think I'll ever get there, but, like, I definitely will be trying as I go, and that's a big I have a quick question.

Karen Benoy Preston: 14:33

I'm going to hang here on the values piece and you mentioned, ryan, consistency, and I'm curious over the course of this amazing career that you are very humbly giving us, as if you have not reached some pinnacle. But let me just ask what's been the hardest moment? What to stay consistent with? What is it that you struggle with that you find the most difficult to be consistent?

Ryan Hawk: 15:08

Hmm, I'm probably not like a very balanced person. Maybe I have stretches of time where I'm better at that, but it's a question that I have to really think through to give you like a real good answer. I feel pretty lucky that I spend most days doing exactly what I want to do, and so it's not hard for me to be consistent at that because I want to do, and so it's not hard for me to be consistent at that Cause I want to do it. Like, if you ask my wife, miranda, she would say I'm very routine and regimented in a in a good way. Um, meaning like I wake up every day and and work out and write and read and do all those things.

Ryan Hawk: 15:49

Um, I've tried to be much more intentional about, uh, all the stuff that comes with being a good husband and a good dad. Um, I've tried to be much more intentional about, uh, all the stuff that comes with being a good husband and a good dad. Um, but like I I when you love like your work, like I want to do it a lot, I want to do it all the time. So you know, I was just actually had met with a friend before this and I was telling her that I uh, uh, I've just signed up for every every uh field trip now trip, now that my youngest daughter has an incarnation and and and so it's like hey, I just blocked it on the calendar, like right.

Ryan Hawk: 16:19

Like I'm not like super balanced. I don't have perfect work-life balance, but in some, some cases, I have way more unbalanced when it comes to doing all family stuff or all kids stuff and not work stuff. So I feel like I'm getting a little bit better at that. But that's something that I have to like be very intentional about, because I don't have a job that I'm trying to get away from. I have a thing that I want to go to on Saturday. I come in here on Saturdays, I come in here on Sundays Like I like being in here, I like working, I like doing the thing that I'm doing. So if anything I need to be, I need to be careful not to like do it too much yeah thanks.

Wendy Roop: 16:52

Thanks for sharing, brian. What comes to mind when you're talking and maybe you can tell me whether this resonates with you, but this is how I feel about my work is when, uh, the line between work and play is blurred right and it's just what we do, and so, um, that's what I hear when you're talking it's just, you know becomes a just, it's just. Everything you do is just what you do. Love that.

Ryan Hawk: 17:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel that completely. I mean, I think, though, that that's really like that's a super fortunate place to be. Not a lot of people get to that place, so, like again, I don't want to take that for granted. I think that's fun. It's just there's there's trade-offs at times. There's there's things you got to be careful about at times when it comes to that. So that's something I just I just try to be mindful of.

Wendy Roop: 17:42

The other thing that comes to mind for me is, um and I'm super passionate about this is just like the Legacy that we get to leave, um, the Legacy that we get to leave, the legacy that we get to experience because of other people's legacies and so forth. And you know, when you were talking about your dad and then when you were also just even talking about how you know, I know, I know you well enough to know how important your family is to you, right, and making sure you're spending that quality time. And Alexa, who helps who you're spending that quality time. And alexa, who helps who you've probably seen emails back and forth from who helps us with our marketing side and connecting with people. She, you know, she was like, hey, did you see ryan's? Um, you know what you put out on mondays, right, and? And so I looked at it and there's this quote on there that so spoke to me and it's children are not good at listening to their elders, but they never fail to imitate them. What does that mean to you?

Ryan Hawk: 18:39

Yeah, I think about that from my upbringing. But also the thing that Miranda and I talk about the most is like we are the model, and so how we respond to success, how we respond to failure, how we respond to everything in between is is was being carefully seen. Even if they're not, even if our girls aren't like overtly saying that, we know that we are just setting the tone and we are the models for what a loving relationship looks like. We're the models for how to treat people. We're the models for picking up the trash when we're walking in the park. We're the models for literally everything and so like we just need to be really cognizant of of of that all the time. We need to approach them with curiosity and not being judgmental. We need to um show up with intentionality every day and everything that we do, and so whether that's how you treat the four people who make your burrito bowl at Chipotle or how you treat people who need help, I think that's a big thing.

Ryan Hawk: 19:41

I remember growing up vividly, but you know, we had landlines growing up and people would call our house seven, eight, nine o'clock at night and I would answer sometimes and it would be like a guy and you could even tell maybe he was hurting or even crying potentially. Uh, not a guy like a, like an adult. You know when I was a kid and he'd say, hey, uh, can I speak with Keith, can I talk to your dad? And I'm like sure, whatever. And I and I would just watch my dad on the phone I can't hear the other side of the call but he just kind of like listen, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh, and like just kind of listen patiently for a while.

Ryan Hawk: 20:13

And then at the end he'd usually offer some sort of advice and he's like hey, you know, I can make an introduction, I can help you, I can do this. And I'd be like what was that all about? And he's like you know, so-and-so is going through a tough time and they lost their job or like they're really struggling or whatever, trying to help them out. And so when you see people around you that you grow up with or that you live with, you know just have this natural inclination to try to help somebody else out. Like you're like oh, I guess that's how I should be Right, you should just help people out. And he never told me like hey, when you grow up, you better help people out or serve others. He never said any of those things. My mom, by the way, my dad's getting all the shine. My mom deserves equal amount of credit, okay.

Ryan Hawk: 20:51

So, just so you know she deserves. She just didn't work like professionally. It doesn't have all the fans that my dad does, but anyway, um, my point is that is like you just got to live it, you got to be that thing and then and again, leadership I I'm firmly believe, is more caught than taught, and so I don't remember him ever sitting us down and being like hey boys, here's what you guys got to do, like ever, ever. It was just like this is the way we're going to try to be good humans and you see it, and that becomes normalized. So what we're really trying to normalize in our house is just being a kind, decent, curious person. Who, who, who tries to help other people when, when we can. And if you just do that every day for 18 years, you know, hopefully, when they leave they are like oh, this is just normal for us to do this. That's our hope.

Wendy Roop: 21:37

I mean, we'll see we don't have any out in the world yet, but we'll see if that works itself out. I don't know. I hope so, yeah. Yeah, you know our podcast is called culture is an inside job, and to me that's that's what it's all about. That's where it starts, right? That is, you know, the culture working on the inside first before you can have any sort of positive effect on the world. And it starts with your family, right?

Scott McGohan: 22:07

so, scott karen well, and I think too, I you know, I think the other thing too is, well, obviously, you know this, and if you don't have those values and then you show up at an employer with bad values, that employer is going to define those for you and then, sadly, your life's going to get wonky, and it's going to get wonky fast. And so, you know, ryan, you've been inside of hundreds of companies. You know, ryan, you've been inside of hundreds of companies and then, um, and I'm sure, most of them really good, and I'm sure, without mentioning any names, but if, if you had to say, like, what evidence like pops out pretty quickly, like Hmm, I'm not in the right place, like I'm not in the right place, like this, like I'm not sure this place has it, has it, has it going on in regards to culturally, like what, what are, what are some of those things that maybe you might see or you might feel, or you might, you might hear?

Ryan Hawk: 23:07

Yeah, so I'll actually name one that's on the other end of that spectrum, but I've I won't name them, at least by name, but I think I've been in places where it's obvious that the leadership team it's not safe to tell the truth, right, it's not safe to speak truth to power. I, I'm working pretty deeply now with uh, you guys probably know wind supply here in Dayton and their president, jeff, jeff dice. I love Jeff and I love this whole executive team. We were just with them last week and I told him told Jeff this afterwards man, I don't know what you've done, but it is so safe for every person in that room to tell you the truth and that's why you guys are an $8 billion company and going to be 20 million probably tomorrow. Like, whatever you've done, jeff, you have figured it out.

Ryan Hawk: 23:59

And when it comes to creating a psychologically safe place for your team to tell you the truth, they're fearless and they're open and they're super vulnerable and they're not scared and they all just say it. My friend Garen Stokes, one of my coaches on my team, he just has this mentality of see it, say it, and if Garen sees it, he says it. And sometimes you know he's not afraid. He just says it and I try to like keep, I don't want him to lose that. That's one of the superpowers, but but I think the good companies, they, they just are not afraid to say what's true and then to try to figure it out like the problem or the issue, and they're not cruel or mean, but they just say what's going on for real.

Ryan Hawk: 24:41

Versus Scott, I think you've probably experienced this at some places or maybe you've talked to others who are senior leaders. If they don't create a place that's safe enough, where people can actually say what's real, I think you're going to struggle. And and the best sports teams were the exact same way like where the coaching staff and the players could create an environment where you could just say what's true. And I think that's something that you got to create as a leader is is is make sure the environment is one in which people are are able to say what's actually happening. And then you try to figure out like how are we going to solve this problem or how can we get after it without people being afraid to actually speak up to the boss?

Scott McGohan: 25:21

yeah, you know, I'm glad you brought up wind supply and you know, rick schwartz and that whole team, I mean what they've given back to this community is incredible and they just keep giving and giving and giving and leaning in this community and staying and staying and staying. It's cool and so thank thanks for giving back, uh and rick, and that that whole team. He's a really humble human being and and such a great, great company.

Wendy Roop: 25:48

So, yeah, and I love that we're calling that out because, again, this you know, unfortunately I think you know a lot of our organizations have work to do when it comes to the type of culture they create and creating that, you know, safe environment. And so when we see it, call it out and recognize them because we just we want them to do more of it. And you know, kind of like to your point, ryan, even about how you know you watching your dad same thing with organizations if other organizations are seeing other organizations do this, you know he's like let's catch that and do more of it. So, yeah, karen, anything come up for you around. Uh, especially when I heard, like the safety piece and so forth.

Karen Benoy Preston: 26:34

Oh my God, I could sit here all day long and chat with that about. So I do have a quick question. I'm curious if you've seen any. When, when, when the team has some, when they're working through building safety right, and something happens now that we don't feel safe, how does the team creatively respond to that without retribution and reprisal? What have you seen, or have you seen that at all?

Ryan Hawk: 27:03

So I want to make sure I understand the question Are you saying, like when somebody maybe makes a mistake and they feel like they're being penalized or punished for that?

Karen Benoy Preston: 27:13

Well, so we're trying to. We're not safe yet right, we're aware that we're not safe and we are learning how to be safe. We understand what safety is, and then something goes off the rails. How do we hold the space for that without reprisal?

Ryan Hawk: 27:32

Yeah, I mean as a leader, like we were the emotional thermostat of our teams. We set the tone, we, we we actually get to set that, that nest thermostat dial, but for the energy and the the kind of the feeling in the room. So I think you have to be really cognizant of that. If you're the CEO or you're the senior person, I think that's important. But but, as as Wendy mentioned, I think at the very beginning of this, um, when we go in and work with a team, like we focus on the individuals in each of those rooms, we do we want them doing this together because they build these trust and bonds, because they're going to have to be vulnerable in an open space. Uh, peter senje wrote a book called the fifth discipline which talks about the power of team dialogue and goes really deep on all of that. And I, uh, with everything that we do, we want to do it in teams, um, and certainly you're going to become a better human and a better individual and a better leader from doing the work. But but the thing that not all of them realize is that we do it in the way we do it to bring your team tighter, to make your team better as a group, because you're learning together, you're laughing together, you're sometimes crying together, you're doing hard things together, and all of that is how you build a strong team, all that's how you build like, safety to be able to see it and say it's safety to be able to speak up.

Ryan Hawk: 29:02

So there's just like sometimes we have to start, like we almost always start at the, the very ground level, and build from there, and so our stuff usually takes a while, um, because, like most of the good things that ever happened in life usually do, usually takes a lot of work, usually takes a lot of effort and it doesn't happen overnight.

Ryan Hawk: 29:22

So to me, in those situations, I think you start with each of the individuals. You got to get them to a place where they can, they can share with the team, and usually that starts, starts with the leader. The senior leader has to go first to let them know like this is a place where we're going to do that here and then, and then they go and then it slowly maybe kind of gets with the whole team that like, oh, we're doing that, huh, okay, and then they get to the spot where they can, they can speak up and share, and then you're doing it together. So, yeah, my buddy brooke cups, one of our coaches, always, always says when he's trying to build teams laugh together, cry to cry together, do hard things together. So anytime we can create environments where that happens, that's just another step along the way of them building like, I think, a safe space to.

Karen Benoy Preston: 30:02

To tell the truth, yeah, it's funny because I'm a certified team coach and love the. You know what you're talking about, starting with the individual and how we collectively come together, and I've always felt like and you use the, the reference of you know, like the sports team as well, cohesion starts in a locker room, right, it's, it's, it's what's going on after and between the games.

Ryan Hawk: 30:53

it's you know, how we show up in a game is the moment of truth for how well we've been. That's the garbage time. That's the good stuff, like that's the important stuff, like when he just got back from our growth summit in Scottsdale. It's intentionally built for the garbage time, like we don't overtly say that, but but it's designed to have longer breaks than normal. It's designed to have these deep, long form conversations in between the learning. So you think you're going there because, hey, we have this great content to share and certainly that is part of we try to make that as good as it can be. But it's more designed for you to connect with a few people and build deep relationships, because that's what changes your life transformational relationships. So I think you have to Karen, it's a great point. I think you have to optimize for, like how are you creating space for teams to have the garbage time, teams to have the in-between time in addition to doing good work when you're in the room? But that's the good stuff.

Ryan Hawk: 31:46

You know the bus ride over for the hype you can have a 10 minute conversation with somebody and become best friends and maybe that lasts then for the rest of your life. All of that is like we got a bus, for that reason Cause I knew there's a chance those conversations could happen right. Where you're sitting at dinner is by design, cause I feel like you could develop a friendship with that person, all of that. So I think, as a leader, you gotta be thoughtful about all those things, because if you're trying to build a strong team like it usually doesn't happen by accident. It usually happens because you're intentional.

Karen Benoy Preston: 32:18

Yeah, and I think since since COVID and now post COVID, in this hybrid world and listen, I, I have a tremendous amount of respect for organizations that are allowing folks to to maintain some level of remote work. But look at the disconnect, look at the look at the struggle that we're all still like I'm an extrovert and I am still like I prefer the four walls around me than you know, going and putting myself out there sometimes, right, um, yeah, so really being recognizing the value of that human connection, and that's how you fall in love with each other, right, that's how you, you really have each other's backs.

Karen Benoy Preston: 32:58

That's the key piece shoulder to shoulder off of people. You gotta collide with other curious people.

Ryan Hawk: 33:02

I think doing that like legitimately doing that is very powerful, and and um, it's even more so when people are spending more and more time remote. So, like you get, you get. I think people want that. I think that's in our DNA from hundreds and hundreds of years ago. We're tribal people. I think we like to be around others, we like to bounce off each other. I think, uh, optimizing for that is good. Like I've recorded. I just recorded my sixth in-person podcast of the year. Um, it costs way more. I bring a full film crew. I do all this. It is every time it is so worth it it's the best. And so, like, I'm trying to optimize for that as much as possible within reason when I can, because I don't want to be on the road too much. But anytime you can get in person with people, it just, it's just better, it just seems to be better. I'm glad this technology exists.

Ryan Hawk: 34:03

My whole life in business would not exist without it, but it is still great, when you can, to get together.

Karen Benoy Preston: 34:11

I have one more quick question and I will not hog the conversation but, the amazing list of folks that you've been conversing with. Who was it that challenged your thinking about a leader, about being a leader, the most?

Ryan Hawk: 34:36

challenged it like where did?

Karen Benoy Preston: 34:38

you learn like where was your pivot, where was your your aha, what was the? What was your? You know your big moment of truth where you thought maybe you had some knowledge and all of a sudden, here's the truth bomb from somebody that you hadn't expected.

Ryan Hawk: 34:54

Yeah, I I honestly that happens a lot. Uh, that's the, that's kind of the that's the learning.

Ryan Hawk: 35:02

Yeah, that's the point of doing. I mean I named it learning leader because my favorite coaches, bosses, teachers and leaders were the ones who always were like taking notes on a little pad. They were always like reading books and they were telling me about ideas that they had picked up from somebody else or something they had learned. So I mean it happens regularly. I mean one of the first pivotal moments. If, if I could, if, because I know it's better to have like an actual story instead of just being vague like I'm being right now episode 86, episode 86 was the woman named Kat Cole.

Ryan Hawk: 35:32

Um, she did it on the phone. Okay, I was on Skype and she was on the phone, so it tells you like this was a thousand years ago, um and uh. So audio quality is not great, um, but you go back and listen to 86 and she is so good and so smart and it was an aspirational one. When it comes to being an effective communicator, um, I first learned the idea of this equally weighted, balanced, of an effective, productive achiever is that being one of of someone who is courage and confident, mixed with curiosity and humility. And I still go back to that equal balance scale that cat told me on episode 86. Value to other people's lives and to just be an effective communicator and be a good storyteller. And I think that was a really big moment where I thought, like man, I have a long way to go. I have a long way to go.

Ryan Hawk: 36:26

Uh, there are people just miles and miles and miles ahead of me in like all aspects of life and, um, yeah, I, I fortunately got to talk to her a few more times since then, but, but that's a pivotal moment and inflection point of both realizing that there's so much like so much more to learn. But also being inspired by someone who's that good, um, and being motivated and uh, and then just being like excited to release it. I remember, after you record them, like I went upstairs I was recording in my house at that time I went upstairs and it was a Saturday I told my wife and I just said I had a full-time job still and I said I can't wait to release this. This is so good, this is so, so good. I can't wait to release this, this, this amazing woman who nobody really knows about yet but she's going to be super famous someday Cause she's that good and yeah, so like those moments are super exciting when they happen, that you have someone that can impact you in such a big way.

Karen Benoy Preston: 37:22

Thanks for sharing that's awesome.

Wendy Roop: 37:23

Yeah, I love that you yeah that obviously that was a pivotal moment for you to, for you to still feel that like remember that moment and just feel the passion behind it, and almost 10 years ago. Crazy.

Ryan Hawk: 37:36

Gosh yeah.

Scott McGohan: 37:38

You know, know, ryan, you talk about curiosity and my, my grandson's eight, actually just turned nine, and so we drive in the car and we get Siri out and I asked him I'm like let's just ask Siri the most bizarre questions, and they're crazy questions, but it is really interesting to listen to a nine-year-old just ask these amazing questions. I mean, some of them are very appropriate, but some of them are hysterical.

Karen Benoy Preston: 38:15

As long as you're creating a safe space for him, yeah, but I you know a safe space for him.

Scott McGohan: 38:19

Yeah, but you know, but I think too is just this incredible gift of curiosity of people. And you know, sometimes I don't know if it's fear or arrogance or just gets in the way of curiosity. And I even love like even sitting with grandkids and just watching them play on the floor. It's like, you know, I can, I can remember like what does that really look like? And just being super curious, and it's a, it's a gift, and you've said that probably 10 or 12 times. It's just this amazing gift of curiosity. Where'd that come from?

Ryan Hawk: 38:58

10 or 12 times. It's just this amazing gift of curiosity. Where'd that come from? I think we're all born pretty curious and then it gets beaten out of us when we go to school. Over the course of time it really does, and it's unfortunate. And then we, as we grow up and get into, become like a teenager, we don't want to look stupid, and sometimes you could look stupid by asking a question, and so you stop asking questions and then you just it becomes a habit to not ask questions. And so the nine-year-old who's?

Ryan Hawk: 39:23

I have a 10-year-old, you know, and her name's Charlie and we nickname her curious Charlie and I never want her. I overtly say this to her, scott, because I know what happens Keep asking questions. Like when you're in school, because I heard teacher at parent teacher conference, I will ask her. I'm like, does charlie ask questions if she doesn't know? And she's like charlie has the most questions in class. You're always asking questions, always, sometimes too much, and I and I'll tell the teacher please do not stop. Like don't tell her to stop, like I want her to do that of her friends, of you, of everybody. That is a good quality.

Ryan Hawk: 39:57

Me I actually was not very curious. I didn't read as a kid I played sports, that's all I cared about Football, baseball, basketball, that's it. And then, whatever sports, we lived by Forestfield Park and so my brother and I go back and play tennis, we play ping pong, we play horse, we play different games we create with Mike and Kevin Nugent. They live right down the street, so they'd come over'd play basketball all the time. We'd play deep into the night. I did not, yeah, I did not grow up asking questions. I did not grow up reading books.

Ryan Hawk: 40:22

What happened is I got a real job and I got really, really lucky. A guy named Rex Caswell, who, he's like. I got a job in sales and I never sold a thing in my life, and so I didn't know what I was doing. I just got done playing football, and so I didn't know what I was doing. I just got done playing football and he goes hey, here are the stack rankings of everybody. Who's the best at the company, at, at, at, selling, right here. You could like we show these every day, you should talk to the top 10 and ask them the questions. And I remember I was like what do you want me to ask him? I don't know. He's like hey, we'll come up with the questions, I'll help you. So, like Rex really took me under his wing, without him I wouldn't have done this.

Ryan Hawk: 40:58

But what happened is I just then I went and did 10 interviews with the top 10 and I asked them all basically the same questions, and I'd ask follow-ups sometimes, but I would just go down the list and I would write everything they said and then I basically created a report that I used for myself and also gave to Rex as like a little project, because I was brand new and I only got hired because Rex is friends with my dad Right. So a hundred percent nepotism hire. I would not have been hired without, without that friendship. Um, but I was like very determined to prove Rex right Because I wanted to prove my dad right Like I wanted. I didn't want them to be like there's nepotism hire, but it was stupid. No, I would say it wasn't nepotism higher. I'm not going to say that's not true, but I'm also going to kill it. I'm going to absolutely crush it despite all that.

Ryan Hawk: 41:48

But what happened, scott, as I learned so much over the course of those first 10 interviews that I thought like why don't I just do this for everything in my life, literally, why don't you just find the people who are really good at the thing you're curious like or the thing that, like you're going to do, and just ask them how they're good at it? Like it's super basic if you think about it. So that project then led me to like go enroll and get my MBA and try to like learn from my teachers and ask questions of my classmates. And I started my podcast literally like a couple of weeks after I got my MBA and I just wanted to keep asking people who were really good at the thing I was doing. I was a frontline manager at the time. I was asking people like how do I get good at this management thing? I don't know. I never managed people in a corporate setting and so I just started asking a bunch of questions of people who were far better at it than I was, and that whole thing has led to this I mean. So it's like it seems pretty basic now, like, hey, why don't you just you see somebody who's really good? Well, let me deconstruct the process to get really good at the thing, cause I want to get good at it, and then that that drove.

Ryan Hawk: 42:47

You see, the power of curiosity when you show up being curious. It's contagious, it makes you want to do it even more. And so now it's like, literally how I base my life is what can I? My friend Larry Seiler says, you know, treat everyone as a mentor. I'm like, okay, I mean, I'm gonna treat everyone as a mentor. Let me learn from them. They all have something to bring to the table. If I chase, chase my curiosity, like I'll probably probably be in a good spot. So, yeah, it's. It's weird in my case that it was learned later in life and not something that I was like she's I'm not. I wasn't like Charlie, like I'm more. I'm more like lucky to be, to be put in a situation to be curious, saw the power of it and now I just keep doing it.

Karen Benoy Preston: 43:28

Yeah, and consistent yeah.

Ryan Hawk: 43:30

Yeah, yep, a hundred percent.

Wendy Roop: 43:32

And you didn't let anybody hold you back right, Like if anybody was like why are you asking so many questions or what have you right?

Ryan Hawk: 43:37

I mean you just you found uh to me, it's my love I mean, it's my love language, like, if you want to show me love, you, you, what you all are doing right now, you're, you're being curious about me, right? I, I, you know, I, I receive love that way. I try to give it that way, especially for people who want that. Yeah, I just feel like that's, that's a way, whether it's the side of a soccer, soccer field, with parents of the other players on my kids teams or whatever. If you know, I feel like I can get, I can get deep pretty fast with people just by trying to learn about them, because I'm genuinely curious about them.

Ryan Hawk: 44:14

It's not like I don't, I'm not trying to perform. It's just a genuine thing now because I've seen the power of it. I've learned a lot from being that way. So it's it's both. It's both how I receive love and and and give it, and I think it's a form of respect, um, and and. Also. There's just so much benefit from showing up that way, because you can learn a lot from the stories of other people.

Scott McGohan: 44:35

Hey, I know, I know we're at like 44 minutes. I got one quick question for you and I'm really curious and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to, so I'll give you complete permission, but you've interviewed so many people. What's what's like the like? What's the one question that gave you like the like? The like brought the most fear or gave you the biggest like. If I ask this question like, all hell could break loose or bad things could happen, or I'm afraid to ask it wow, I like that.

Ryan Hawk: 45:14

Um, I don't even know if it would be on the podcast, but this is. This is a little weird, scott, but I'll just say it. Um, like it's happened multiple times, whenever somebody has been divorced, I will just say why'd you get divorced? Um, and that's a little risky, especially if I haven't known them for a while or don't know them at all. I'm genuinely curious as to why, though, because I want to do the opposite of that, like I'm trying. I don't want it. I don't want that to happen, you know, and so like, and they'll like, and usually, though, I found I mean I don't know if you show up like with being genuinely curious and it feels that way like you're not prying People want to talk about, like, the tough things they've gone through.

Ryan Hawk: 45:59

Like people want to talk about it. Like they like to like I've had some tough things go on. Like we have a blended family. You know, like there's a lot of moving, complex parts with the different people in our lives that we have to check things through. Like right, people used to be in relationships with it's. I actually like talking about that. No one ever asked me about it. It happens a little bit, every once in a while, but it's super complex and crazy and weird. But I see, like people, if they're genuinely curious about it, like I like it, I think that's cool.

Ryan Hawk: 46:30

I and so to me, like if someone's been through something hard or traumatic or it didn't go the way they want it to go, which the way this is life, that's how that's life is super messy and really gray, not black and white. Why not talk about it? Like, why not have like that conversation? Why not go there? You usually will deepen your relationship with that person again if you show them like it is safe and that you're genuinely curious, you're not like trying to pry, to like spread gossip, like I I'm not I hope that people don't see me that way probably do in my personal life from time to time that, looking back, even Miranda will say like really Like you, you went there and I'm just like, yeah, it was actually really good, like I think he liked it, you know, and they and they I think people like want to talk about that stuff If you show that you care about them and uh, or that you care about at least about, or that you care about at least about their story, and so I think sometimes those scary questions or going deep personally, um, can be good, can be good, but but a lot of people are like too nervous to go there and so so they don't, and and usually that's where like a lot of the good stuff is.

Ryan Hawk: 47:54

But that's a really good question. Scott, I appreciate you making me think about that, because there there's probably an example from the podcast too. I just have to. I'd have to think about that more, but I'd appreciate that.

Wendy Roop: 48:04

Yeah, ryan, that's one thing I uh, one of the things that I do love about you. I mean listening to your podcast and then just getting to know you better and watching you in action, like authenticity. I mean, you are very authentic and the way that you show up for people is just very real, and so I really appreciate that and I know it truly makes a difference in this world too. So, thank you, thank you for that. Like Scott said, we could sit here and talk to you for hours, so we're gonna wrap up here and maybe we can have you come back, um, you know, another time with us if you would.

Wendy Roop: 48:41

But, um, a couple of, uh, quick things I want to ask you. Well, may not be quick, but number one um, when you made the decision, when you made the decision to step into you know, starting your podcast, um, what did you hope overall to be different? And I think and I think I'm going to tie it to this question too like, what would you want our listeners this is all again about culture is an inside job what? What do you want our listeners to know? You know about what you bring to the world. What do you hope to be different?

Ryan Hawk: 49:27

Uh, so when I started the podcast, that would be probably different from what you know what I'm saying. So, um, whatever, it is now.

Wendy Roop: 49:33

Yeah, well, when I started it was, it was. Whatever it is now.

Ryan Hawk: 49:35

Yeah Well, when I started it was, it was. It's still for an audience of one. It's for me. I'm happy that other people like it too. It's changed my life, but it's it's still for me. And what I'm most curious about is my. I created my own form of leadership PhD program Cause I didn't want to go to formal school anymore after getting my MBA. That's genuinely why I started it. So it's, but I think, doing things for yourself when people can tell that you're genuinely into the thing. As you just talked about, people like to listen to that Like.

Ryan Hawk: 50:08

You got to meet my coaches, brooke Cups and Garen Stokes. They are so aligned with their purpose and their values and their critical behaviors. I am so attracted to people like that. That's why I chose to have them be on my team. Um, I mean, these are huge decisions that Eli Liker, garen Stokes and Brooke Cubs made. They left the profession that they were in to come be with me, right, but? But I think part of it is because they they would. They would be able to be their authentic selves and I loved it and I told him how attracted to that I am.

Ryan Hawk: 50:37

So that's what I guess I would hope for other people. Is that you figure out, because it's hard, like it takes a while to like get very real on who you are, what your purpose is, what your values are, what the critical behaviors are that make those values true, and then you go out and live it every day without fear of judgment, without fear of what others are going to think or say. We all care about that somewhat, right, but some care way too much about that. You know, and yeah, so I'd hope when you see the stuff that we do, whether it's me or the people on my team you're like these guys are doing what they're put here to do. These guys care deeply, because Garen actually asked me that we got really really good feedback recently from Wind Supply and Garen back recently from wind supply and garen was like man, what is it like? What are we doing? I'm like gee, you're just real. Like you're.

Ryan Hawk: 51:21

People can tell how passionate and how much you love what you're doing. Like he's soaking wet, sweating at the end of our sessions. He's so like, like into the stuff that he does that like you can't help but feel that when you're in the audience, you can't help but feel how much this guy is doing exactly what he was put here to do and he loves it and oh, by the way, it's really helpful for the people who are receiving it too. So that's what I hope other people could get Right. I hope they could sense that, like I'm doing what I want to do and what I'm curious and obsessed about, and hopefully others can do the same and you could learn from the stuff that we're doing as we go. But yeah, I mean, I guess that's how I would answer that, but that's again a good one. That makes me think. But that's what we try to do and it seems like for the people who are into it that that's what they feel.

Wendy Roop: 52:18

So, ryan, I've gotten, I've got to experience, you know, some of the tools that you've asked us to lean into in your learning leader circle to help us to, for, to help us to go inside, and that's one thing that we ask at the end of all of our podcast episodes is, you know, let's go inside, and so we leave something with our listeners because you know, you know this just as much as anyone like, this is all great and information, we, we grow and learn, but, like we do, don't really unless we put it into action. So what is one thing that you would invite people to do like a next best step or something to do in order to, um, exactly what you were just talking about, right, in order for them to really, uh, lean into how do they do what they're called to do, right, and stepping into that and learning more about, maybe, what that is. So what would be one thing you would ask them to take time for themselves with?

Ryan Hawk: 53:09

So Scott mentioned this earlier in the conversation about values. We all have values. Everybody in the world has values. Most people haven't clearly defined what they are. So that's what I would have people do.

Ryan Hawk: 53:23

And and whether you need to work with, with, with with one of you guys, because I know that's part of the stuff you help with um, and to me, I think you should work with somebody. I work with brook cups for years getting this. I mean, we, and then we I even like wanted to continue to learn from him. So I said let's write a book together, because that's the ultimate kind of project to learn um is to write, and certainly to do it with somebody who you really admire. But I would say, get clear on your purpose values and critical behaviors that make your values true, terrific.

Ryan Hawk: 53:50

Now, that's really hard, it takes a while, and I think you should probably work with a coach or somebody that can help you do that. But, but purpose values, critical behaviors If you do that, like you're miles, miles and miles ahead of where you were prior, cause you have them, you just don't know what they are yet, and so you got to do the work to figure out what they actually are and then, once you can, then you're, you're, you're probably going to be living a much more like purpose-driven life as opposed to, you know, wandering around like hoping for the best, which is what a lot of I mean, it's what I was doing, uh, it's what a lot of us were doing before we get really clear on what those things are.

Wendy Roop: 54:21

Yeah, that's great, thank you. And we've got a resident values coach, karen Preston, with us, so there you go, Like honestly learning more well well, well worth the time, effort and money.

Ryan Hawk: 54:33

To work with somebody who is a literally Karen you know that's. To work with somebody who is a literally Karen, you know that's that's what you do, then yeah, I mean, that's amazing and I think we all would be much, much better off if we did that work. It never ends, by the way, like this, this whole personal development and values, like it never ends and that's part of the fun, and that's that's part of it is that we can always work on this stuff. But I think that's super important to get clear on that.

Karen Benoy Preston: 54:58

Yeah, awesome.

Wendy Roop: 55:01

So you have. Obviously you've got three books. That's out right and Welcome to Management Score that Matters and the Pursuit of Excellence, so people can find out more about your messaging around leadership and all of those things in those books. Listen to listening to your your podcast, the learning leader podcast. How else can people find you, ryan, and learn more about you?

Ryan Hawk: 55:25

yeah, all of that stuff's at learningleadercom, so my home base for everything and everything I write and and talk about is learningleadercom terrific scott karen any other last minute things for ryan no, ryan, just thanks for uh.

Scott McGohan: 55:40

I said no and I keep talking, but uh, hey, thanks for uh, thanks for giving back, hey, and certainly thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. It means a lot yeah, yeah, thank you.

Karen Benoy Preston: 55:51

This is I just tremendous. Appreciate your vulnerability and good stuff. Keep doing what you're doing, thank you.

Ryan Hawk: 56:00

Thank you, appreciate it, thank you.

Wendy Roop: 56:01

Thank you, Ryan, it was fun and everyone. We will see you next time.