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Speaker 1
Welcome to Culture is an inside job. The Podcast on building an authentic, engaging and Inspiring Culture. Hi, I'm Wendy Roop and along with my friends and co-hosts Karen Preston and Scott McGowan, we believe that building a healthy work culture starts with leaders like you. If you're ready to get real and dig deep into your own self-awareness, determine how you want to show up in the world and then take aligned action to transform your leadership and those around you.

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Speaker 1
Then this podcast is for you. Now let's go inside.

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Speaker 1
Welcome back to Culture is an Inside Job. How you doing? Karen Scott.

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Speaker 2
Great.

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Speaker 3
Good on this end.

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Speaker 1
Good, good. Been spending a little bit of time catching up before we hit record and we're happy tailors with this of course, because, you know, it keeps us it keeps us going and helping us with all of our technology. So thank you, Taylor. So last time we were together, we jumped in and we're talking about our Sabbath tours and please go to episode ten and and listen to that for all the details because because we did talk about a lot of things.

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Speaker 1
So we're not going to repeat all of all of that and all about positive intelligence and so forth. But that information is there. So when we were together, we dove into Avoider, the saboteur as we call out as well. First of all, judge, right. Like that's the overarching that's the overarching saboteur. And then all of its accomplices and the ones that we had the opportunity to dove into explain a little bit and then also share from our perspective how they show up in our lives.

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Speaker 1
We talked about avoider controller and hyper achiever, and so today and the other thing I want to mention is when we at the end of that episode with all of you, we also just ask you to observe really yourselves, right? How are these, if any of them or how are they showing up for you? And then I know Karen brought this up and this is something I say all the time, but I don't think you can repeat it enough.

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Speaker 1
The importance of giving ourselves space and grace as we're discovering those things. It's not about beating ourselves up. It's not about being wrong. It's about, gosh, what's the impact that it can make when we have that deeper level of self-awareness about about when they are showing up and then later on will determine what what do we do about it?

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Speaker 1
But just as self-awareness in itself is huge, a huge first step. And so sometimes we have to sit in a little bit more. I know Karen talked about that last time. Sometimes we have to sit it out a little bit more before we can then determine how do we quiet them more? So before we jump in. Scott Karen, anything that you would like to add?

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Speaker 3
I think what's interesting and you guys are the experts in this area and I'm not, but my gut says, you know, like a lot of assessments, you take some of them, they almost set the stage that says you're baked at 19. So the first time you take them, they're not going to change. Does that make sense every time?

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Speaker 3
And my gut says, looking at this, that potentially this could change over time with increased self-awareness. And and am I right?

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Speaker 1
Yeah. Karen, go ahead. I have my thoughts, but answer and I'll jump in if if I need to.

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Speaker 2
So I would say absolutely, I would agree. And I probably could be a testimonial to that with my own experience. After having done the saboteur assessment the first time.

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Speaker 1
And.

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Speaker 2
Really understanding that level of humility in it and how, wow, I had no idea. You know, the awareness can now be there to understand, well, what would it look like if I were to quiet these? And and so ironically we'll talk a little bit more about this as we move along. But my controller was my third highest and my pleasure was was kind of low and really since doing this work as well, collaborating more with Wendy and recognizing the pleaser, more so in those around me.

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Speaker 2
I have level, I have leveled out my controller and my pleasure is higher and so it doesn't mean that I'm full and pleaser, but I'm just much more aware of of the pleasing mindset and how collaboration is important and that needs I, I need to be more considerate rather than controlling, if that makes sense. So yes, I do believe that can change over time.

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Speaker 2
And, and Shirzad encourages us to take them as often as I even have some of my clients saying I want to take this from a personal perspective as opposed to a professional perspective, because they do believe there may be some differences. And as a coach, that's really important to coach that gap, right?

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Speaker 3
Well, I say that because like in my own life, I don't know when my but kind of fell off like 14 years ago. I was in.

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Speaker 1
May, but.

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Speaker 3
I did it last month.

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Speaker 2
Where I thought we would talk about a button. But then I realized like.

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Speaker 1
I.

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Speaker 3
Lost my right. It fell off. But I was like the mayor of victimhood.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
And I hated conflict. Right. And so I bet if I took this like 14 years ago, like, victim would have been number one. It would have been a trophy.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
And then avoided it or would have been really close and now it's kind of slipped to the bottom. So thanks for clarifying that, because sometimes when I take these things and think, Wow, I just came out of the oven and I'm baked and there's nothing I can do about it but apparently, based on your feedback, I have done something about it.

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Speaker 3
And then we get to talk about the shenanigans that are going on today.

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Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And I'm so glad that you brought that up, Scott, because and I agree with everything Karen said. I do believe and last time we talked about this, right, like the saboteurs all come from someplace from childhood. And so I do think both before we have that level of self-awareness around where they came from, you know, whatever those those saboteurs were are going to pop to the top.

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Speaker 1
And to your point, Scott, if you hadn't had the level of self-awareness and done the quote unquote work, as I like to call it, you know, over the years, which you have that victim would still be probably the loudest. But because you've chosen to do that and had the level of self-awareness and then done the work around it, it's quieted and allows some others that are coming to the top.

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Speaker 1
And then that's kind of that cycle that can happen. So, yes.

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Speaker 3
Can I tell you a great victim story.

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Speaker 1
Please?

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Speaker 3
So when I was a kid, I have a twin brother and it was Christmastime. And my sister and my brother got a bunch of toys. Well, I counted them and they got more toys than I did. And I walked to my parents bedroom and I was like, Hey, Mom, Dad, I want to know why Todd and Stephanie got more toys than I did.

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Speaker 3
What? A victim, right? So my dad says my mom's name is Jackie. Because Jackie, do you want to tell him or should I.

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Speaker 1
Get.

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Speaker 3
My mom's? Like, tell him what? Because, well, son, today's the day you get to figure out. The reason why they get more presents is because we love them more. You know.

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Speaker 1
That's a whole nother session in itself.

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Speaker 3
No, but I love the fact that this arrogant little snot nosed kid. Right. Asked a really stupid question and got a really just.

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Speaker 2
Deservedly stupid answer.

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Speaker 3
Yes. Thank you for clarifying that.

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Speaker 1
She's like, let me just tell you, this is the real story. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, whether whether you remember that story today, right. What it did to you then or how you how you took it then and whether you shifted it all is a whole nother thing. But but you remember it today, you know. So it had an impact on you.

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Speaker 1
Okay.

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Speaker 2
Karen, thanks for sharing. I just want to remind our listeners that they, too, can go and figure out whether they're a saboteur. Ah, by taking this P Q saboteur assessment at WW W dot positive intelligence dot com and there is a link that will take you to the saboteur assessment. It's no cost. Very easy and very, very informative.

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Speaker 1
Yes, thanks for that. For that reminder. If you have not taken it, please go do so. It's very helpful. Okay. So Karen, you want to jump into maybe pleaser, start talking a little bit more about that?

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Speaker 2
Sure. So Pleaser. Let's see. I think the way that I would frame pleaser up is it's the it's the mindset of wanting to make sure that everyone else has taken very well care of and or that you yourself are liked well enough and said there could be a a bit of a a combination or one or another. But how we see this show up often is being very willing to give and ironically, what might happen is that there's an unconscious need for something back.

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Speaker 2
And when we're not getting that, we may start to feel a bit resentful and could even then take. And when I say take, I'm going back to just the kind of that little idea of give and take. And so remember those moments. If this is you, you've probably felt the minute that resentment set in, depending on what our other saboteur is, might be right.

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Speaker 2
We then kind of retreat, we pull back, we, we go into other either you're not good enough or I'm not good enough. Other mindsets, right? So yeah. What are some of the justifications and lies here? Wendy This is, you know, pleaser is something that, you know, you and Scott both have this in one of your it's one of your top three.

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Speaker 2
So what's coming up for you is how how do you justify this being a pleaser?

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Speaker 1
Yes, the pleaser can be very loud for me or. Sure. So a few of the justification lies might be, you know, I don't do this for myself. Right? So no matter what that is, if I'm helping someone or I'm doing like it's like I'm not doing this for me, you know, I'm doing this for for everybody else. The world, honestly.

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Speaker 1
Like it could be like, no, I got to save the world. Like, there's yes, it can be that big. I help others selflessly and don't expect anything in return. So that was just I can talk.

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Speaker 2
About the irony of that.

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Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. And then the world would be a better place if everyone else did the same.

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Speaker 2
I gosh look at the judgment.

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Speaker 1
Mhm. Lots of judgment, lots of judgment and.

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Speaker 2
An unconscious though. Right. Because again when you're positioning that is your self-worth is tied to how everyone else is, how happy everyone else is.

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Speaker 1
Right. Because the judgment honestly again it is both sides. For me though, the constant, the when my pleaser is really loud and again it's tied some other to other things too. But it's the judgment about me, right? Like I'm not you know because another word and Scott you use this is when we are when our are just really loud sometimes it can be we're in rescue mode and we're trying to fix and rescue and yeah wow it's there's so much that comes up around this for sure.

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Speaker 2
Scott, what about you?

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Speaker 3
Gosh, I mean, you know, going back in time, I mean, I think my desire to be liked was more important than my desire to be trusted.

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Speaker 1
Mm hmm.

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Speaker 3
And then your opinion of me more than my own opinion of myself, which is really just rare that people pleasing.

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Speaker 2
Was that when you lost your.

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Speaker 1
But that's okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 3
That's when I lost it. And then it, it, it was, I don't know, there was just so many what a destructive way to live it was on.

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Speaker 2
But so you you think about that though during that period of time in your life, you really couldn't know what you did. You couldn't know that this was destructive because, again, you're badge of honor was tied to how well-liked you were.

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Speaker 3
Yeah. And you honestly, I tell you, this is sick part of it. It felt so virtuous.

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Speaker 1
Mm hmm. Manage.

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Speaker 2
And that's really irony, right? It really is so ironic.

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Speaker 1
I just want to add, like, in in the positive intelligence of saboteur work, you know, give some descriptions. And one of the words they use, the very first word when they describe pleasure is indirectly tries to gain acceptance and affection by helping, etc., etc.. And so it's not like again, again, it's for me and for you too. Scott Right.

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Speaker 1
It's just such a normal operating system that it's not like I'm sitting here thinking, Oh, I just want to make sure that I'm right. Like to gain acceptance, right. I need to make sure I'm doing that. That's not my thought process typically, but what are you processing? I see you think.

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Speaker 3
And Scott I think for me it was pretty thinking about just how wonky that was. And then almost feeling like it was like my job to write everyone's script every day. And when they didn't read the script, now it sounds like I'm really beating up on myself and I'm not because I get to look at like how far I've how far I've traveled, because I see people that maybe don't live that way in a pleasing way.

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Speaker 3
And then I look at them and I judge like what Karen was talking about, like, you are so selfish and self-centered, you don't care. And that gets wonky. So I don't know. I'm so grateful that you guys know what you're doing here because I don't. So I know where I was and I know where I am and this is just super interesting to me.

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Speaker 2
It's called conscious choice.

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Speaker 1
Yes.

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Speaker 2
Right. You can't know what you don't know. And once you have that awareness, you get to choose. So so if.

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Speaker 3
I like who I am right now, I should stop listening.

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Speaker 2
Well, we'll get into why that Restless is here. And the stickler I'm sure we can relate to as well. Right, because I know I can. Yeah.

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Speaker 1
If the Blazers quiet or you've got some others that Yeah. We what we can talk about those two. Yes. But this one for me is really. Yeah. It's, it's my last of my book. This, it's my second highest. I think typically I would say it shows up as my top. But and just real quick, I just have to because it's throwing me in the face.

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Speaker 1
But like, it's it's yes, the blazer is but like some of the some of the thoughts I'm just looking at, like to remind myself what are the thoughts that I have? And and, you know, to be a good person, I should put the needs of others ahead of my own. Like that is, again, it's an operating system. I don't know that I'm regularly thinking that, but that is definitely and what you just said.

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Speaker 1
Oh, no, the resentment piece. It bothers me when people don't notice or care about what I have done for them. I think that piece I have definitely it's that piece is quiet and some but definitely as I think about my past life, how loud that was to. Yeah. Mm hmm. So Karen.

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Speaker 3
Karen, as she's given us that look like.

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Speaker 1
Yeah, she's getting ready to do some coaching. I can tell that's what I.

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Speaker 2
Wanted to just. I guess, like, I'm going to put my curiosity hat on here and for you for your high pleasers. And this was really kind of fascinating. Wendy, you and I done this work, but let's see if we can play with Scott and give him back is but.

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Speaker 1
Kicking at the theme this.

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Speaker 2
One is but sometimes soon here in that pleaser and so the one way of acknowledging and validating its presence right as soon as we realize okay hey look this my pleasers here, it makes sense, right? I know why you're here. But now I want to figure out how to debunk this lie. So this is our number one tool is the empowering questions.

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Speaker 2
So what question would you ask your pleaser to debunk the lie about how well you're liked or how happy everyone else might be?

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Speaker 1
Yes, good question for you, since Karen and I have talked.

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Speaker 2
It's we'll come we'll come back to this, because this is pretty fascinating for for Wendy and I. But curious here, Scott, if you had that empowering question for your pleasure that you were debunking today.

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Speaker 3
Jason Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, today like I'm a friend with myself, so and I like myself and your opinion of me is it's important, but my own opinion of myself is a lot more important than your opinion of me. And I just had really, really low self-worth. So my self-worth was performance plus your opinion of me.

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Speaker 3
Now, my performance one, which is probably the restless one is still reared its head. Or as you guys said, and I really like that it's louder. But the opinion of others is that's really dampened. That's, you know, that's come way down. Growing up I got affirmed when everything was okay. So I was a peacemaker and you know, I did my bad and my brother didn't.

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Speaker 3
So I saw him get in trouble and I felt this is sick, but that felt good, right? He's going to trouble. I'm not. So I would just make sure everything was good in my little harmony.

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Speaker 2
Part of that word once before I. Right.

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Speaker 3
Yeah, but it was super narcissistic. Oh.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 2
So one of the things that I've just heard you talk about was the ability to love yourself. And that's that is magic here, right? So the this is how I would frame this up with a client. My question for you as a pleaser would be, what do you need to make yourself whole first before your willingness to even to to care for someone else's needs or to care about whatever someone else might think of you?

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Speaker 2
Right. What do you need first? So if we really, truly look and think that pleasure is sitting with a hole in their heart because they're looking to fill that hole by taking care of someone else to be light so that they feel worthy and fill that void. If we just shifted that well enough and and thought well enough, what do I need first to fill my void, to fill my hole.

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Speaker 2
And it can't be anything or anyone outside of me. The only person that can give that to me is me. You did that, Scott. That's that's the game changer for you as you recognize what self-love look like, being able to to think, what do I need first? And that's Wendy. Why you're not feeling as resentful anymore because you are giving yourself the space and grace of what you need.

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Speaker 2
Being able to ask at that point in time when you're starting to feel a bit frazzled, why everyone else is, you know, disconnected from you.

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Speaker 3
That's when you find your butt.

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Speaker 2
That's that's exactly right. You what you thought.

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Speaker 1
Was so.

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Speaker 2
It's just you just put your butt back on and you're good.

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Speaker 3
I found it.

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Speaker 1
And I love Karen. And I had this conversation a little bit ago, and and and she asked me that question, like, for her, that's what came up from her perspective, you know, what would I need? And I said to her, I'm like, I wouldn't even have asked myself that question. Right? Like that's I'm so focused typically right on everyone else.

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Speaker 1
Okay. Not that I never asked myself that question, but that's just not a normal thought process for me. So I so appreciate it, especially when I talk about space and grace and the importance of that. It's reminding myself, When do you need to do that for yourself as well? And I think that's why it's so important to me to talk to other people because I know I need it more.

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Speaker 2
I want to I want to dial in on this because this is really important. So so that that this is clear. You and I had a conversation about. Well, okay, here's the pleaser. And I asked you, what is what is what is your most you know, what are your empowering questions? What did what do you remember what you said?

00;23;24;11 - 00;23;30;18
Speaker 1
I said, who am I? Who am I really trying to please? Mm hmm.

00;23;31;22 - 00;23;37;01
Speaker 2
And you had another one.

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Speaker 1
What am what am I trying to avoid now?

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Speaker 2
Who am I trying to protect?

00;23;42;03 - 00;23;47;22
Speaker 1
Who am I? Yeah, yes, yes. Who am I trying to protect? Who or what am I trying to protect?

00;23;48;02 - 00;24;13;07
Speaker 2
And I recognized you're still focused on external of you in both of those empowering questions. And that's when I came back and challenged again. But we can talk about why it comes from my mindset to think about yourself, because I am a stickler, borderline narcissist, if we can throw that word here, Scott, thank you for the permission.

00;24;13;07 - 00;24;14;15
Speaker 1
But here we are.

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Speaker 2
It's easy for me to think, Well, why wouldn't you need to take care of yourself first? Because that's that comes from my stickler mindset, right? So it's easy for me to think, well, why would you be thinking about everybody else when you just need to be thinking about yourself? See, I got it figured out. But do I right.

00;24;32;13 - 00;24;58;20
Speaker 1
Now that's I'm glad you brought that up, because it is important for us to think about that, which is why this work I love this work that we're doing and sharing with everyone around right now, specifically the saboteur is because the more that we have that understanding about us and then the possibility of understanding about other people, we're able to less than our judgment because we have a better understanding of their perspective.

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Speaker 1
So talking about this and and sharing it with each other, right on this podcast just opens up the opportunity for other people to know it's okay to do the same.

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Speaker 2
And again that just reaffirming self awareness and what that leads to.

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Speaker 1
Mm.

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Speaker 2
Because again it does start with ourselves.

00;25;26;15 - 00;25;50;12
Speaker 1
That's right. Yes, right. We've talked about this and you know I think reminding everybody because not that we don't do it ourselves, but it is so easy to come in here. All these things. Yeah, such and such. You know, there's such a pleaser. Are there such a and while there is a gift and importance to that, eventually, first and foremost, it's well, what about me?

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Speaker 1
When we can do that work, then the rest will come. Yes.

00;25;54;29 - 00;26;14;29
Speaker 2
And so to round off the pleaser here, one of the other things that I've noticed is that it's the word selfish in your mind. Like there's a that it can come across as being selfish for you to take care of yourself. Right. Isn't that how you define selfish? But let's come back to the irony of what you were talking about before, Scott.

00;26;14;29 - 00;26;45;04
Speaker 2
How ironic it is that the reason that you're really only looking to take care of everyone else is for your self. It's to make you feel worthy in any and many of those instances. Right? And that's just where we break that cycle right away. If we recognize where is my own self-worth first, then your ability to communicate and, and provide and serve others comes from a very different place.

00;26;46;12 - 00;26;54;01
Speaker 3
Well, I think it comes from I mean I'll just go back in time and taking care of myself sounded really selfish.

00;26;54;15 - 00;26;55;02
Speaker 2
Exactly.

00;26;55;11 - 00;27;19;27
Speaker 3
Because I didn't I didn't love myself at all. But I knew how I love you. Maybe in a warped kind of way. And then once I found that there was just a lot of freedom in that a bunch. So I like working out, right? I like, I like my, I maybe my spiritual space where I can get alone and pray.

00;27;19;27 - 00;27;36;21
Speaker 3
And I love that my day doesn't go well when I don't do that. So I find that time where I can get kind of quiet. And I would have never given myself that that time or that space for a lot of different reasons.

00;27;37;06 - 00;27;47;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is an opportunity again as we talk about we're going to we're going to jump into I think maybe we could talk about restless. Yeah.

00;27;48;07 - 00;27;49;23
Speaker 3
But I don't want to talk about that.

00;27;51;20 - 00;27;53;09
Speaker 1
He wants to move on to the next thing.

00;27;53;13 - 00;27;55;11
Speaker 2
This is where is but still is somewhere.

00;27;55;27 - 00;27;57;03
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's right.

00;27;57;06 - 00;27;58;12
Speaker 3
My butt is right there.

00;27;58;19 - 00;28;22;09
Speaker 1
Right. So those of you that are listening to this, you know, again, the opportunity to come back to this and and just reflecting, you know, take the time to reflect on what do you think about the pleaser? If that was one that came up for you, what what does that mean? Right. And how is it how is it showing up for you?

00;28;22;29 - 00;28;28;16
Speaker 1
So let's dove into restless. This is also really loud for Scott Knight. Mm hmm.

00;28;28;27 - 00;28;31;29
Speaker 2
This is your you're top right, both of you.

00;28;32;06 - 00;28;34;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, right now it is top. Yeah.

00;28;35;17 - 00;28;56;08
Speaker 2
And so I see this this restless showing up in a couple of different ways. Actually, you guys can speak to this sometimes. I see that this is the distracted one, or it can be the one who has lots of irons in the fire, constantly stoking. And you just your your self-worth is tied to all.

00;28;57;08 - 00;29;02;23
Speaker 1
That you have.

00;29;05;26 - 00;29;08;07
Speaker 2
So. Yeah. What's what's coming up? Scott, what about you?

00;29;08;13 - 00;29;12;02
Speaker 1
Before we do that can I. Yeah. Can I just make sure we also talk?

00;29;12;05 - 00;29;17;03
Speaker 2
Sure. Let's go back into it to find a little more in lies and all that. Yeah, yeah. One of the lies. Tell us.

00;29;17;14 - 00;29;20;22
Speaker 3
Tell us a wise one.

00;29;21;09 - 00;29;42;02
Speaker 1
So, so one line that I want to say is, you know, when our Russell sisters really loud, we're rarely at peace with the current activity. Right. Or that are content with it. So it's always like, you know, the next thing. And again, it shows up for different reasons for each of us as far as why we do it.

00;29;42;02 - 00;30;06;00
Speaker 1
But some of the justification lies, which I definitely, as I'm looking at all of these, they're all true for me right now. Life is too short. Like, we got to get things done, man. Like, life is too short. We got it. And then it must be lived fully. And then I don't want to miss out FOMO. Definitely some FOMO going on there too, I think.

00;30;06;26 - 00;30;15;04
Speaker 1
Scott, what about you? What what's true for you or what's what what comes up for you when you think of Russell's and what it shows up for you?

00;30;15;04 - 00;30;35;19
Speaker 3
Well, before, if if I didn't had a lot going on, then I had to get like I had to have, like, quiet, like things got really quiet. I did not like things quiet. I like a lot of noise around me. So today's like it's a lot better where I'm probably not making as many promises as I used to.

00;30;35;19 - 00;31;11;25
Speaker 3
And then obviously, you know, in my role of transitioned a lot of responsibility and then stepping away from that as has been really good lately and then not making promises that I probably my break is, is easier for me today. But yeah, I love the action. I mean, I just I love, I love being where there's it's noisy and it's fast and it's creative and and then my ego really gets involved there, too.

00;31;12;00 - 00;31;20;06
Speaker 3
I, you know, I want to be a show pony. I want to be on top and all that, all that good stuff.

00;31;21;16 - 00;31;53;02
Speaker 1
I love that you bring that up, but I'll, I'll share a few things that come up for me around this one. When you're talking about ego again, right? It shows up for us differently. We ego, we either have a can, have a big ego or a small ego and not that we're always one of the other, but like that's how it can show up for us and I would say for me, it's the smaller side of the ego from the perspective of if I don't do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, then I'm not going to be enough.

00;31;54;04 - 00;32;27;03
Speaker 1
And and so that lack of confidence and lack of belief in myself and you know, lack of thinking that I should be it's okay to stop is definitely, you know, ego. But it's it's that smaller ego. So I've been working a lot lately. I see how hurtful it is for for me to constantly be doing and not allowing myself just to be.

00;32;27;14 - 00;32;55;21
Speaker 1
And I don't mean never taking action and just sitting around going, Oh, well, you know, it'll get taken care of. I just mean, again, going back to that space and grace, the space piece of it, how in the world, if I don't allow myself the space to be able to think long enough and feel long enough as far as what has come up or I call them, you know, God downloads, right?

00;32;55;21 - 00;33;22;25
Speaker 1
Like what? What am I being called to do to be in alignment with who I am? If I don't stop long enough, then I'm not going to be able to, I guess, eventually show up as show up as the best version of myself. Right. And Scott, you mentioned the silence. And again, not consciously is does this come up for me?

00;33;23;09 - 00;33;51;03
Speaker 1
But most of us are scared of silence and and I'll speak for myself when I think of my operating system, just the way that I've been. Right. And so I kind of create I don't even think about it. It's just the way that I show up. Part of the reason my, you know, I think my restless can be really loud is because if I stop long enough, I don't I don't want to I don't want to hear my thoughts and I don't want to feel my feelings.

00;33;51;21 - 00;34;10;19
Speaker 1
So if I can just keep on moving and I envision myself too with ten arms, like just doing all the things and both of you know me well enough that you see me in that mode. You know, Scott, people I used to work with, it can be used to make fun of me because I walk so fast in the hallways and so forth.

00;34;10;19 - 00;34;32;24
Speaker 1
But but that's a coping mechanism, too. And so that is the discovery that I've made. And because I'm bit building my business right now, even more so if I don't do, do, do you know, I'm not going to be able to keep doing what I love and that's such a lie because anyway, I could talk about this all day.

00;34;33;24 - 00;34;59;04
Speaker 2
I want to bring into this your you know, how I may have hopefully our listeners had an opportunity to listen to our Episode ten, where I shared the visual of the big bike, where everybody's all all of the saboteurs are on that big bike that goes from bar to bar. And, you know, all ten them, the judge, all nine of these saboteurs.

00;34;59;04 - 00;35;28;08
Speaker 2
And I'm hogtied in the back right being dragged. So you guys in this what I just heard was, Scott, your stickler is sitting in the back seat or riding shotgun with your restless when you show pony and Wendy, your avoider is riding shotgun with your restless. When you're kind of quiet, when you're like, This is too hard. I don't want to deal with all of all of that.

00;35;28;08 - 00;35;28;19
Speaker 2
Do, do.

00;35;28;19 - 00;35;30;14
Speaker 1
Do, do, do, yes.

00;35;31;13 - 00;35;55;29
Speaker 2
And so notice the difference of Scott. Neither one of you want to stop long enough, right, Wendy? Neither one of you want to stop long enough to see what's on the other side of silence or stillness. You're learning to come around, obviously, because you see the benefit of that, because taking that a conscious choice. Right, and seeing that it's actually a gift there, it doesn't have to be avoided or it doesn't have to be you know, it can be a gift in that space of silence.

00;35;56;09 - 00;36;00;27
Speaker 2
But notice that's your opera. Like you say, it's your operating system.

00;36;01;15 - 00;36;02;20
Speaker 1
Right? Mm hmm.

00;36;04;06 - 00;36;09;04
Speaker 2
I just found that fascinating to observe here.

00;36;09;04 - 00;36;10;15
Speaker 3
Are you restless at all, Karen?

00;36;10;26 - 00;36;11;03
Speaker 1
No.

00;36;12;03 - 00;36;15;29
Speaker 3
No. Boy, that was like. That was an automatic.

00;36;16;04 - 00;36;46;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think the reason is because I'm a very I have probably learned how to keep it at bay because I do prefer a focus border accomplishing, you know, one thing at a time. I'm not great at getting things done to the end. So my hyper achiever is probably the one that shows up there. But I'm a stickler.

00;36;47;07 - 00;36;57;28
Speaker 2
So if I'm not going to be number one or the best or we talk about Stickler in a minute, but, you know, I can't can't do 15 things at once good enough.

00;36;58;22 - 00;36;59;12
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.

00;37;00;29 - 00;37;30;12
Speaker 2
I Wendy will tell you, this is why we work together really well as she keeps my guardrails by not needing to constantly be perfect. So for me, as a perfectionist, I can get very hung up on staying very, very laser focused to laser focused on the one thing right where I balance her out sometimes to be like, okay, let's just bring it back down into the one thing right?

00;37;30;12 - 00;37;33;02
Speaker 2
Instead of juggling 15 glass balls in the air.

00;37;33;12 - 00;37;58;14
Speaker 1
That's a really great way to describe it as I think about our work together, right? Like with again, we'll dove into Stickler in a second, but the stickler is more can can like get lost in the weeds with all the different, you know, specifics. Actually, that happened before we started recording, didn't it. Like you're going to need all the stuff.

00;37;58;14 - 00;38;00;07
Speaker 1
That's Yeah.

00;38;00;07 - 00;38;05;05
Speaker 2
Hyper, hyper rational in there too. Needing to understand it. Yeah. When you know, I don't want to know any of it.

00;38;05;05 - 00;38;39;00
Speaker 1
La la la la la. I don't want to right now. But but for me it's like literally not like my brain. I have to be so intentional about stopping and instead of thinking about all the things, it takes a lot of intentionality, which Scott, I'm sure you I know you get to as far as like you be doing something and all of a sudden like you're thinking about all these other things and it's like takes a lot too to focus in on what you want to be working on.

00;38;39;00 - 00;38;57;00
Speaker 3
You have probably got like 30, 40 minutes of focused time and then after that, like I get to get up and walk around or do something now. I mean, we must drive Karen up the wall. We think about that like we're going to have to. Like, she probably needs therapy.

00;38;58;06 - 00;39;01;00
Speaker 2
Bring it in. Let's go, Mom. Focus now.

00;39;01;00 - 00;39;09;19
Speaker 1
People she loves, that's so much. Yeah, it's got. You just said something that I was thinking about. Our listeners.

00;39;09;19 - 00;39;13;19
Speaker 2
Are. Oh, here we go. See? Look, she's got her thinking going and.

00;39;13;19 - 00;39;38;15
Speaker 1
All these different directions, like, no, it was about this, it was about this. But okay, the Russell's is kicking in, so maybe we should move on. Oh, I knew what I was going to that this isn't what I was going to say, but like 10 minutes ago, this is what I was going to say. What about this, Karen, as far as when we think of because I do love the idea of giving ourselves an empowering question.

00;39;38;15 - 00;39;52;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm interested in your perspective as your restless is quiet. If you were coaching me and Scott, Scott and I, Scott, to me, what's appropriate?

00;39;53;03 - 00;39;53;23
Speaker 2
I mean, you.

00;39;54;20 - 00;39;57;16
Speaker 1
What would your question be? Can you think of something?

00;39;58;12 - 00;40;12;17
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would say, what is it costing you now to have so many irons in the fire? What is it costing you? You know, to do a bit of a cost benefit analysis. What would the benefit be of being able just to complete one thing right now?

00;40;13;02 - 00;40;20;08
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. That that's always helpful for me. What about you, Scott? Like, does that resonate with you?

00;40;20;16 - 00;40;21;14
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah.

00;40;21;19 - 00;40;22;00
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;40;22;17 - 00;40;55;08
Speaker 3
I mean, actually, I was I was with Taylor yesterday, our son, and it was really great to have nothing on the agenda yesterday. And then Lori said, Hey, do you want to go on a target and gets into it, like finish some up, some Christmas things? And my answer was, you know, I probably don't, but yeah, I'll go, you know, and it wasn't a burden, wasn't a pain, but to have nothing on the agenda was actually it was really nice and not feel guilty.

00;40;56;02 - 00;41;13;05
Speaker 3
However, I do have to like get on my spin bike every day. But some days like I can't operate unless I do that. And then some days I don't even do it that hard. But I just check the box and then I'm then I give myself permission to like to do nothing after that.

00;41;13;16 - 00;41;24;18
Speaker 1
Scott I've been so connect with that as a fellow restless person as far as I don't allow myself to do that very much. I'm working on it. LC Working on it.

00;41;25;12 - 00;41;27;15
Speaker 2
As if there's a day that you can have.

00;41;27;15 - 00;41;51;12
Speaker 1
It. I'm being on it and I hate to say it, but at any rate, when it happens, oh my gosh, it does feel so good. And I can tell that in mind, body and spirit, I need that downtime in that space and that is when I am able to give myself grace, is when I have that. So thanks for bringing that up because I can really connect with that too.

00;41;52;19 - 00;42;08;02
Speaker 2
And I do think that that's that conscious choice. That's the difference there for for you, Scott, yesterday was being able to say, yeah, I can I'm coming at conscious choice to be comfortable with nothing on my plate today.

00;42;08;02 - 00;42;22;08
Speaker 3
Well, to be completely honest and it probably it's and the stickler is, you know, it's 20 degrees out. So I got the leaf blower out. So the leaves are off. I cleaned up. Right. There's no dishes in the dishwasher.

00;42;22;09 - 00;42;23;25
Speaker 2
Okay. Now the truth is coming out.

00;42;23;25 - 00;42;24;07
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;42;25;18 - 00;42;28;27
Speaker 1
So there was nothing. Yeah, I don't know.

00;42;28;29 - 00;42;37;14
Speaker 3
Could I. Could I lay there and do nothing with a mess off to the side or something? Like my car was washed. So those things don't make sense.

00;42;37;14 - 00;42;58;11
Speaker 1
But but no, Scott. No, I can I can connect with that. And I think it's an important point. What what is it that we need to do sometimes in order to be able to just be and I hear you like it is if I have a day like that, it's getting up in the morning and doing a few things that just makes my mind be at peace.

00;42;58;11 - 00;43;05;03
Speaker 1
And then then I can just be. So I, I hear you.

00;43;05;12 - 00;43;17;25
Speaker 3
You know, I mean, this is so bad, and I know we're going long, but it's happening. And the stickler. I cannot go to bed unless I have clothes. The next day. Lay out what's going to happen.

00;43;18;05 - 00;43;19;21
Speaker 2
That's not stickler, that's just angel.

00;43;19;29 - 00;43;22;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, well, I lost my bud.

00;43;22;24 - 00;43;30;18
Speaker 1
So I go, Oh, my God, we love closeness. They.

00;43;30;18 - 00;43;49;27
Speaker 2
And so I get to say this because it's I love it. I and my fellow stickler just got very happy hearing that because I, I am very much the anal retentive person myself needing to have things in order. And whenever it's out of order, it's very chaotic and I don't function well. So.

00;43;49;27 - 00;43;51;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, let's keep going with Stickler.

00;43;51;15 - 00;43;51;26
Speaker 2
Sure.

00;43;52;06 - 00;43;54;24
Speaker 1
Now and then we'll and then we'll wrap it up.

00;43;54;24 - 00;44;34;01
Speaker 2
But perfectionist. Yeah. Like perfectionist needing really, this has been hard for me, being number one, being the best, whether I'm competing with myself or anyone else. If I'm not going to be number one on it, then I don't want to do it. Being able to rationalize that right may justification lies would be, Yeah, you know, I can make up a lot of excuses as to why I wouldn't do certain things.

00;44;34;06 - 00;44;59;04
Speaker 2
But the other piece to that is it brings about a bit of arrogance to go in and say, Oh, I got this when I don't got this. I don't know Jack about this vulnerability. I'm going to go in and going to learn it. And especially if it's something that I'm interested in and learning and willing to grow.

00;44;59;04 - 00;45;19;11
Speaker 1
I just want to add a comment around that to is because this is one of those I think we talked about a little bit this a little bit about this last time that some people, especially if they have that loud stickler like me, say, well, what are you talking about? Like shouldn't leaders, you know, we need that to make sure that everything is just right and so forth.

00;45;20;06 - 00;45;40;10
Speaker 1
And and so yes. And when we talk about Stickler as a saboteur, it's when the need for that perfectionism in order is taken too far. And then what it costs, those of us that, you know, the stickler where it may be loudest is coming up. So anyway, I just wanted to bring that up.

00;45;40;19 - 00;45;57;13
Speaker 2
No, thank you. I think that's really critical because there there is definitely a how do we leverage, right. Some of these saboteurs, the hyper achiever, the controller, the you know, those that get shit done kind of thing. Right. But here's the point, is that yeah, there is a there's a.

00;45;58;24 - 00;45;59;01
Speaker 1
A.

00;45;59;22 - 00;46;26;00
Speaker 2
Point of inflection there, but where it starts to become a bit of a detriment. Right. And so for for the stickler, we project perfection on others. We have a very, very high expectation of how we show up for ourselves. And that oftentimes is project on in others. And when they do not meet that expectation, we have now set them up for failure.

00;46;26;00 - 00;46;32;06
Speaker 2
Scott What does that mean? Your stickler is your your second highest there. So how does that resonate?

00;46;32;26 - 00;46;56;07
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I just my dad even told me that one time he goes, son, do you know what's worse than somebody who thinks they're perfect? And I was like, No, because somebody who is you wear me out like you just exhaust me anywhere, other people out. And it was that was an approval. So they need to get approval from their people and so I had to be in charge.

00;46;56;14 - 00;47;22;24
Speaker 3
The smartest person in the room, the most going on, accomplish like number one and sales like all of those all of those accolades had to be like right in front of me. And he was in he was right. It's probably I probably gave, you know, my son that curse and daughter that curse and it's exhausting. It is just it is exhausting.

00;47;23;18 - 00;47;26;20
Speaker 3
Yeah. The big problem in that it's a drug.

00;47;27;19 - 00;47;32;17
Speaker 2
Know your feet it yeah. You can't help. Oh it's it's absolutely it wants to be fed.

00;47;32;28 - 00;47;47;17
Speaker 3
I tell how that. Oh God I put our kids are in high school I put tape in the garage so I like and I like junk drawers like, like little everything organized like scissors, gold one container pens go in another, binder clips, paper clips, Karen's looking to me like.

00;47;48;17 - 00;47;51;06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I do love.

00;47;51;06 - 00;47;58;02
Speaker 3
It. Then I put tape on the on the garage floor, like, this is where your cars belong. Yeah.

00;47;58;02 - 00;48;02;07
Speaker 2
Like, not further back. Not further. You know where that is. Stop right.

00;48;02;10 - 00;48;10;25
Speaker 3
Now. That did not work. Oh, did did did not work. There's part of me I'd love to live in a tiny home where everything would just be tiny.

00;48;12;02 - 00;48;13;24
Speaker 1
It's just right there. It's just.

00;48;13;24 - 00;48;14;02
Speaker 3
Right.

00;48;14;02 - 00;48;36;19
Speaker 1
There. All right. There. Now, I love. I love both of your you know, you've the vulnerability you're sharing and how it shows up for you. Let me share the justification lies. And then you you both tell me how these resonate with you. So one, the lie that you know, the the lie that this is a personal obligation. Like that's like your thought process.

00;48;36;19 - 00;49;02;01
Speaker 1
This is a personal obligation. It's up to me to fix whatever mess I encounter. Perfectionism. Perfectionism is good. Plus it makes me feel better about myself. There's usually a clear right and a clear wrong way to do things, and I know how things should be done and must do the right thing. So one of those like how do those resonate with you?

00;49;03;00 - 00;49;35;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'd say the black and white is that is one of the biggest things for me, too. But remember, I'm having a hard time here because my top three are I had been since since really working on this and quieting them. I my top three were stickler hyper rational controller and you know, like look at the needing to be the number one smartest person in the room and controlling all of it is really that is toxic right like nobody wants to play in that space.

00;49;37;00 - 00;49;59;08
Speaker 2
You can't compete with me. You don't even want to. And I don't make it fun. So. So I really had to stop. This was this was the wake up every morning kind of this is my recovery work, right? I was like, yeah, okay. I get to tell myself every day I am, hello, Karen.

00;49;59;11 - 00;50;00;16
Speaker 1
I yeah.

00;50;00;23 - 00;50;02;27
Speaker 2
I am a cancer.

00;50;02;27 - 00;50;03;25
Speaker 1
Role freak.

00;50;04;08 - 00;50;15;24
Speaker 2
Narcissists, right? Yeah. And what do I get to do about that? When do I get to be different? Today. And so, again, relaxing the controller and me, but still the hyper rational sticklers there.

00;50;16;04 - 00;50;16;14
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;50;17;07 - 00;50;42;24
Speaker 1
And I think my question as not that my stickler is an ever high at all, but like my question from my perspective would be for both of you, what might you be willing to let go of? And Karen, I think you and I talked about this last time. People like I would heck, no, I wouldn't even be I wouldn't even think of that either.

00;50;42;24 - 00;50;59;06
Speaker 1
But but yeah. And back to your point earlier to Karen and what is it costing you by holding on so tightly, you know, to whatever that is what comes up for you when I ask those questions.

00;51;01;04 - 00;51;30;11
Speaker 2
I think one of the biggest realizations through this work with Shirzad, you know, doing the positive intelligence work over the last couple of years, I, I saw how much it's costing me to need to show up perfectly like from an artistic perspective, I really put art aside in a way that I have not been able to reconcile. Why?

00;51;31;08 - 00;51;40;14
Speaker 2
Until I realized, well, it's because I'm not showing I'm not it's not going to be masterful. So I'm just not willing to do it. But it's.

00;51;40;14 - 00;51;41;12
Speaker 1
Costs artist.

00;51;41;15 - 00;52;03;21
Speaker 2
Well but it's costing me not to even just go into the space and where I you know, you're in that environment of you have the color pencil or the paint or whatever you're in that space of that's that flow state. So that, you know, that's the highest level of consciousness, right? Where nothing else, time and space don't exist.

00;52;03;21 - 00;52;18;23
Speaker 2
But I won't even let myself get there because I'm so hyper focused on the outcome. You know, it has to be perfect that I'm not able to enjoy being anymore. And so that's a real cost to me.

00;52;18;23 - 00;52;20;20
Speaker 1
Yeah, but you, Scott.

00;52;22;04 - 00;52;56;00
Speaker 3
I mean, great questions. I mean, I think that what does that what does that costing me? And then Karen brought this up, too, but what does that costing others? So in your perfectionism, if if you're playing and there's nobody else in the room than you, then you're not. You're no fun. And then those of us with maybe titles or authority like, then it's even worse because then they have to play with you, but they don't want to play with you.

00;52;56;00 - 00;52;56;20
Speaker 3
Does that make sense?

00;52;57;07 - 00;52;59;03
Speaker 1
Oh, yes, I sense.

00;52;59;28 - 00;53;05;23
Speaker 3
Yeah. So some of this like some of this conversation, it just kind of stings like, ooh, ouch.

00;53;06;07 - 00;53;31;00
Speaker 1
Yeah. And and again, it's the not from a shaming perspective, right? But it it when we say these things out loud and really think about it like all of us do, then we get to ask that question, Well, how is it serving me or others or not? And then we get to make the decision that, okay, well, it's not.

00;53;31;00 - 00;54;03;00
Speaker 1
And so we get to come from that place of conscious choice on how do we want to show up and how again, like what's the work in quieting them? So I think that's the work for our listeners know as we think about go let's go inside is just being with it acceptance. Yes, that acceptance. I think we talked about that last time too.

00;54;03;00 - 00;54;29;15
Speaker 1
And you know, no where how is it showing up for you and how it what is it costing you? How is it holding you back? And then thinking about the, you know, affect on others as well, just that like that's that's the work and the rest will come. And I think it's trusting in that. Anything else you would add, Karen or Scott?

00;54;29;15 - 00;54;50;25
Speaker 3
I think if I had a definition of each of those and if you can probably find it on the website, right? That's what they mean. And I took it and I love what you guys brought up earlier, like a T-shirt. So because there's there's some good things about being a stickler. There's some paths out of my making that sense.

00;54;51;28 - 00;55;10;09
Speaker 3
It's but if you really honestly look at it, it's probably harming you and others heck of a lot more than it's benefiting you. But looking at the truth in that like almost and like in a teacher. So how is this benefiting me and how is this hurting me and others? That would that's pretty interesting. Mm hmm. And then to your.

00;55;10;09 - 00;55;10;24
Speaker 1
Point, if.

00;55;10;24 - 00;55;16;25
Speaker 3
You were really honest, you'd be able to ask some people, like, close to you, like, how annoying is this?

00;55;17;29 - 00;55;26;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Or How right. How annoying is this? How am I when this shows up? What does it look like to you? You know, what are you experiencing?

00;55;26;26 - 00;55;28;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, this is what I think I'm doing.

00;55;28;18 - 00;55;32;13
Speaker 2
But you my kids can tell you. I can tell you very clearly what.

00;55;32;13 - 00;55;33;22
Speaker 1
They think of you. That.

00;55;34;00 - 00;55;37;09
Speaker 3
Yeah. What do they say?

00;55;37;09 - 00;55;41;19
Speaker 2
Mom, I just wanted to vent. You didn't need to come fixing it.

00;55;42;14 - 00;55;47;03
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. You want my duct tape and superglue? I've got something, right?

00;55;47;13 - 00;56;12;15
Speaker 1
Exactly. Yeah, I need. Yeah. So that's the work, right? That's the work is just paying attention. And to Scott's point, I love that maybe asking others around you how they experience it, because sometimes we hear that even more so than we hear ourselves right. If we hear somebody else and what it what it does to them or for them or what have you.

00;56;12;15 - 00;56;41;13
Speaker 1
So with that, we will continue the conversation next time in talking about some of the other saboteurs. And thank you for, again, just being a part of this community and and caring so much about culture and just, you know, leadership and how we respond to our circumstances and understanding there's a choice. And with that, we'll see you next time.

00;56;42;11 - 00;56;43;14
Speaker 3
Thanks, guys. Have a great day.

00;56;43;21 - 00;56;44;27
Speaker 2
You too. Bye.