00;00;00;27 - 00;00;30;00
Speaker 1
Welcome to Culture is an inside job. The Podcast on building an authentic, engaging and Inspiring Culture. Hi, I'm Wendy Roop and along with my friends and co-hosts Karen Preston and Scott McGowan, we believe that building a healthy work culture starts with leaders like you. If you're ready to get real and dig deep into your own self-awareness, determine how you want to show up in the world and then take aligned action to transform your leadership and those around you.

00;00;30;09 - 00;00;37;00
Speaker 1
Then this podcast is for you. Now let's go inside.

00;00;39;14 - 00;00;46;15
Speaker 1
Welcome back, everyone. To Culture is an inside job. How you doing? Karen and Scott?

00;00;47;05 - 00;00;48;09
Speaker 2
Great. How about you?

00;00;49;08 - 00;01;23;25
Speaker 1
Doing very well. We are excited to jump into podcast number ten today. And just a quick recap. We last time that we got together, we talked about the importance for leaders to really be unbelievably curious. Scott brought that terminology in and we also talked about the difference between acceptance and being fear based, you know, having fear based thoughts and then the impact that has on our culture.

00;01;25;11 - 00;01;51;04
Speaker 1
We talked about Gayle's. So just to go back to that real quick, Gayle's saying for gremlins, assumptions, interpretations and limiting belief, which is a term a term that Karen and I learned about when we went through our Ipac coaching training. And that's really where our fear comes from, and it's rooted from our past and our experiences and the things that we hold on to.

00;01;51;28 - 00;02;29;04
Speaker 1
And in talking about that, Karen and I have also been exposed to some work from a body of work called Positive Intelligence. And there is something that Shirzad Shaman created called a saboteur assessment. And we ask you to go. Those of you who listen to last podcast, we ask you to go to Positive Intelligence s dot com to take the saboteur assessment and an escort took it's got you said it was is pretty simple and easy to take correct.

00;02;29;21 - 00;02;33;04
Speaker 3
Super easy. Really easy to take. Yeah, I enjoyed it.

00;02;33;22 - 00;03;02;24
Speaker 1
Excellent. So we thought we would dove a little bit deeper in that today. And so we want to focus on what what is that? Right. What is what is the saboteur assessment? What are the saboteurs? And and really, where did it come from? And just diving deeper into uncovering them to really get to the truth of who you are, the truth of who we are.

00;03;03;08 - 00;03;28;25
Speaker 1
And and let me remind everyone, this is a journey, not a destination. And so it's something we may do today. And we will be revisiting this on a regular basis if we want to continue to grow and develop, because we go through all of these chapters and seasons of our life and it's not always going to be the same as far as when we look at what's blocking us.

00;03;28;25 - 00;03;54;20
Speaker 1
So let's dove in. So positive intelligence. Let me just quickly. So in other words, PCU, so we have IQ. We have IQ and we have PKU. So that's what positive intelligence is. And some of this I want to take directly from Shahzad's book, Positive Intelligence, to make sure that I'm doing it justice. But if you look at it this way, your mind is your best friend, but it's also your worst enemy.

00;03;55;07 - 00;04;23;07
Speaker 1
And so positive intelligence actually measures the relative strength of these two modes of your mind. High positive intelligence means that your mind acts as your friend far more than as your enemy. And then low positive intelligence is the reverse. The positive intelligence is therefore an indication of the control that you have over your mind and how well your mind acts in your best interest.

00;04;24;04 - 00;04;54;28
Speaker 1
And so it should be relatively easy to see how your level of positive intelligence determines how much of your true potential you actually achieve. So we've talked about that quite a bit already in on our podcast with regards to as leaders realizing that we do have a choice. And so when we have a higher positive intelligence, we understand that we that we come from a place of choice in how we respond to our circumstances.

00;04;56;07 - 00;05;14;17
Speaker 1
And again, this is why we love this work, because it all also relates to what we've been talking about. Our seven levels of of energy are seven levels of leadership. So they're all tied hand in hand and then on the other hand, when we don't come from that place of choice, it's usually because we're stuck. And that's where the saboteurs come in.

00;05;15;11 - 00;05;30;09
Speaker 1
Saboteurs keep us stuck because they think they're trying to protect us. And so let me just talk a minute about and Karen, please jump in any time. If I'm you know, if we need to add anything.

00;05;30;09 - 00;05;31;01
Speaker 2
You're doing great.

00;05;31;10 - 00;05;57;23
Speaker 1
Thank you. Any pieces to this? So our saboteurs, as I mentioned, really come from just like when I was talking about we were talking about the gales comes from past experiences. And when we think of the saboteurs, literally, they come from our childhood and our childhood experiences. They'd be our parents. There'd be other, you know, people in our lives back then.

00;05;59;06 - 00;06;39;27
Speaker 1
And I want to be really clear with this, with the understanding that there are some of us who had very traumatic childhoods, and there are others that we think of our childhood as very healthy and either way, even in a healthy childhood, these saboteurs showed up because of the perceived threat that we felt, experienced, experienced as children. And so a way to describe this in the end, I guess let's just talk about the reason why it's so important to uncover our saboteurs.

00;06;41;09 - 00;07;19;17
Speaker 1
First of all, when we these were created for us, when we were kids, we and I use this word a lot, but we created this operating system. It just became the norm. Right. It showed up because it thought it was protecting us. And then that's just the way that we were kept rolling. And so if we here's here's a good analogy that Shirzad makes with positive intelligence and talking about the saboteurs, if we broke our leg when we were a child and we got a cast put on our leg, and then six weeks later we got it off.

00;07;19;29 - 00;07;48;04
Speaker 1
Overall, it's made our legs stronger, right? The bone is stronger, etc. However, if we would have gotten that cast put on her leg when we were young, three years old boy, years old, whatever it was, and then we still had that cast on. What would it do to us? Right. It would it would not be stronger. Our leg wouldn't have grown.

00;07;48;04 - 00;08;20;03
Speaker 1
And so if we relate that to the saboteurs, if we don't discover what they are and we don't realize that we don't have to attach those stories anymore, then we have more of an opportunity to grow. If we if we keep it stuck. Right. And we don't want to go there, then we aren't growing and we stay. We become weaker.

00;08;20;04 - 00;08;45;14
Speaker 1
Right? Just as overall as leaders, as people, we aren't, as Karen says a lot, we aren't reaching our fullest potential. So first, let me pause and ask Karen anything else, Karen, about just the overall what is just the saboteur and what's the importance of uncovering it? Before we jump into the details.

00;08;45;14 - 00;09;06;25
Speaker 2
You had all of these high points as I was kind of taking notes. So I do want to bring back the seven levels of energy, though, because this is why we love this work. Right. It's very relevant. And like you said, it's what keeps us in those lower levels, feeling stuck. It's what keeps us not from reaching that full potential.

00;09;07;18 - 00;09;34;16
Speaker 2
So what's the benefit of of this? First of all, having awareness will always be your gift, the ability to recognize. Oh, yeah, look, this is this is showing up for me. Now, what do I get to do? I don't need to feel shameful or guilty about it. I just get to take the the level of responsibility, meaning I have now an opportunity to respond differently than I might have had they hijacked me.

00;09;35;21 - 00;10;03;17
Speaker 2
And that's what allows us to reach our full potential. That's what allows us to not have any limiting. Are any limitations enabled in enable to see that that we have an opportunity to constantly be constructive and creative, rather than staying stuck in these more damaging and destructive mindsets. So yeah, I mean, I'm ready to jump in. How about you?

00;10;03;17 - 00;10;26;13
Speaker 1
Yes. And thank you for adding that. The one thing that just came up for me, too, is, you know, while and I think of my own saboteur as you know, and I can think of and I think this is an important an important point to bring up. So while it's important for us to look back because each one of these saboteurs tell a teller and an origin story.

00;10;27;15 - 00;10;52;23
Speaker 1
So which is also amazing how connected those are as far as to our saboteurs. But while it's important for us to look back to our childhood and say, okay, even in a healthy upbringing, like where did this come from? When we think of it today, after we've done that and we've sat in that for a little bit and gone, Oh, well, of course this is going to come up for me because of X, Y, Z.

00;10;54;04 - 00;11;14;16
Speaker 1
Then the point of it isn't to stay in the past and to, you know, continue to think about that or blame our parents or blame other people in the past. The point is, is for us to say now, how is this showing up for me today and how am I allowing this to hold me back? Does that make sense?

00;11;15;16 - 00;11;21;22
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I want to add to that because I want to make sure that our listeners are not viewing this as therapy.

00;11;21;27 - 00;11;22;28
Speaker 1
Yes. Thank you.

00;11;23;03 - 00;11;43;18
Speaker 2
So if we were to look back in those moments of where this came from and why, we may be more looking at it from a therapy perspective of what I believe you're trying to say here is that that's not really relevant here. It's that what's showing up for you now is in your way of reaching that full potential going forward.

00;11;44;13 - 00;12;08;00
Speaker 2
So from a coach perspective, we don't need to know how and why. We just need to know that they're there. And now what? How is this limiting and how do we overcome this in order to get to where we want to be right now? It's fun to go back and think, Oh, yeah, this is exactly where it came from and we know exactly why that is.

00;12;08;16 - 00;12;19;13
Speaker 2
But we're not needing to go back in therapy and and reconcile all of that. We're just looking at the here and now and recognizing how it's limiting you from getting to where you want to be. Right. Yeah.

00;12;19;13 - 00;12;28;22
Speaker 1
And I think I think the importance, Karen, you know, as I think about it, as far as just that, thinking of where did it come from, is, is because it normalizes it for us.

00;12;28;23 - 00;12;31;05
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. The justification lizer insane.

00;12;31;06 - 00;12;50;24
Speaker 1
Oh my goodness. Right. So, so it's not necessary, you know, to your point. Like it's not necessary to stay there. But by understanding where it came from, it normalizes. And again, just like you said, the gift of being in it in the present and the coaching piece of it is, okay, great. Yep. That's where it came from. Now what?

00;12;50;24 - 00;12;56;20
Speaker 1
How is it affecting me now and how is it going to help me to be at my highest potential by discovering it. Love that. Thank you.

00;12;57;26 - 00;13;10;05
Speaker 2
Scott, before we kind of jump in here, I want to make sure I give a website for our listeners. But let me ask real quick, any thoughts about what so far we've kind of introduced with positive intelligence for you?

00;13;10;23 - 00;13;15;11
Speaker 3
You know, I feel like I'm like the guinea pig here. Right. But I do think.

00;13;16;04 - 00;13;18;05
Speaker 2
We're going to get you off the hamster wheel and worry.

00;13;18;26 - 00;13;43;23
Speaker 3
About what I love about this, too, is like, you know, for a lot of us as leaders, there's a lot of things often in the future that that will be automated. Even the things some of the things that we're doing right now will be done by bots or it'll just be replaced through automation. But by the grace of God, there's a couple of things that won't be replaced with bots, automation and that emotional intelligence.

00;13;44;16 - 00;14;08;23
Speaker 3
Right. And the ability, that self-discovery. Yeah. And that's really what I love about, you know, YouTube and and being involved in this too. And then maybe a deeper understanding of, of this because and you guys know this, but our brains, number one job is to protect us and it tells us lies all the time. Our brain does not like change, does not like change.

00;14;09;13 - 00;14;31;24
Speaker 3
And then when we are open to being just beautiful, amazingly curious around where we are, then it helps us understand like where those things came from. Because when we understand where they came from, then we have one amazing thing and each of you are already talking about that. Now I have a choice. Before, I didn't know I had one, and now I have it.

00;14;31;28 - 00;14;49;07
Speaker 3
I have a choice around how I enter conversations and relationships with people. So I am I'm excited about this this journey. I took my assessment and I'm really interested in amazingly beautifully curious feedback.

00;14;50;05 - 00;14;50;24
Speaker 1
Excellent.

00;14;51;02 - 00;15;16;12
Speaker 2
Well, we're excited about this for you, because for me, I use this with 100% of my clients and it is absolutely the biggest game changer for them to transform. So it's this is exciting for us to have this experience with you as well, as well as our listeners. So the website is positive intelligence dot com and you'll see a link to the saboteurs.

00;15;16;12 - 00;15;48;16
Speaker 2
And from there there is an opportunity to take this easy, fast, very relevant assessment at no charge thanks to Shirzad and his amazing work. So feel free to share and like and send us any comments or questions on what's coming up for you with with what you find in your saboteur assessment. So you want to talk about the judge?

00;15;48;25 - 00;15;52;12
Speaker 1
Yes. Let's just jump in and talk about that darn judge.

00;15;52;12 - 00;16;19;08
Speaker 2
Yes. So the idea, I guess, that was the foundational premise of positive intelligence is that we all have this judge and it's I'm not good enough. You're not good enough. It's not good enough. And for those moments, even when we see ourselves saying, oh, I'm better than you, you're still the underlying feeling is I have to prove I'm better than you because I'm not good enough.

00;16;19;08 - 00;16;55;07
Speaker 2
Right. See the irony to that and Shirzad says we have nine accomplice saboteurs, everything from the avoider pleaser, stickler, perfectionist, hyper rational. We'll go through them all. But these nine saboteurs are what limit our ability to get to truth. They keep us in fear based mindsets. And we all know that when we're in a fear based mindset, we're limiting our potential rather than coming and catalyzing from that truth based perspective.

00;16;55;15 - 00;17;15;27
Speaker 2
We are fearless. Our truth is there is no fear where fear is, there is no truth. So we have to work through the fear in order to get to the truth. And when we can when we can get to that truth, we have no none of these little weeds in the way, so to speak. And that path as much clearer.

00;17;16;12 - 00;17;34;10
Speaker 2
We can take aligned action where we are more passionate, we are more purposeful. We are not here to think we are not good enough. Because the truth is we are. Before we even put our foot on the floor in the morning. So what should we do here, Wendy?

00;17;35;15 - 00;17;40;08
Speaker 1
Why don't we dove into avoider first?

00;17;40;08 - 00;17;50;14
Speaker 2
Sure. There was a lot of a lot of avoider here in power when we first started some of the conversations. But let's talk about the avoider.

00;17;51;16 - 00;17;59;14
Speaker 1
And I'm wondering, Karen, too, if we if we are willing to share how some of these show up for us as we're stepping in to describe them.

00;17;59;18 - 00;18;02;27
Speaker 2
100% full on vulnerability.

00;18;02;27 - 00;18;03;16
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;18;03;20 - 00;18;04;05
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;18;04;10 - 00;18;23;28
Speaker 1
So I know usually when Karen and I review this with our clients, I guess I'll speak for myself. Karen, you might do something similar, but I usually stick within the top three or four, depending on, you know, where they're at. But this as of right now, because it can shift as of right now, the avoider is showing up.

00;18;24;04 - 00;18;29;26
Speaker 1
I'll just say kind of like in third place, you know, for me. So what about what about the two of you?

00;18;31;06 - 00;19;08;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, for me, it's actually really low. And we'll we'll find out why as we walk through some of the others, because it makes sense. I don't. I don't. So the avoider typically sees conversations as potentially conflictual. So it's conflict averse. It's viewing things as maybe being bad and it makes sense that you need your justification. Lies are keeping you from needing to have those conversations because your perception is that it's going to go bad.

00;19;08;03 - 00;19;15;19
Speaker 2
Your perception is that it's going to be full of conflict. Right. How true is that for you, Wendy, real quick, before we cut to Scott?

00;19;15;22 - 00;19;19;22
Speaker 1
Yes, very true. You're right on.

00;19;20;26 - 00;19;28;14
Speaker 2
Scott. You didn't have a high avoider like me, but where was your avoider? In your in your list of saboteurs, may I ask?

00;19;29;02 - 00;19;39;00
Speaker 3
It was second to last, but I do think if I would have taken this before I entered my own journey, it would have been number one or number two.

00;19;39;00 - 00;19;41;26
Speaker 2
Right. You're so you're a recovering avoider then. Right?

00;19;42;17 - 00;19;57;11
Speaker 3
And I was the mayor victim. All right? I was the mayor of that town. Yeah, it's a horrible zip code, but it would have been interesting to see where where that was. And it's exciting to see maybe see where that, you know, where that where that rest of the day.

00;19;57;19 - 00;20;17;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. I think that just as important are those top few that that are the filter of all of our experience. I think it's just as important to notice what's happening at the bottom because oftentimes we have a hard time meeting people where they are when they are in that level. Like you say, you know, you're as a recovering victim.

00;20;18;15 - 00;20;34;22
Speaker 2
It may be hard for you to see meet other victims where they are because it's hard to say, well, how'd why don't why do you feel this way? You know, you know, you shouldn't feel this way. It's easy for us to project that we don't have that victim. Right. But we'll get into that. So go back to the avoider.

00;20;35;09 - 00;20;38;22
Speaker 2
What are the number one justification lies of that third place avoider? Wendy.

00;20;40;01 - 00;21;10;07
Speaker 1
You you are a good person. The spare others feelings. You know, the thought that justification lie that no good comes out of conflict. You know, it's it's good to be flexible and someone needs to be the peacemaker and yeah, those resonate well again right now that's in third place. It used to be a lot louder for me, which is also ties to my pleaser, which we'll be talking about that.

00;21;10;08 - 00;21;17;29
Speaker 1
Cynthia So yes, so those are some of the justification lies that the avoider will chirp.

00;21;18;17 - 00;21;39;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so here, if I want to put my coach hat on for you and that avoider at my question might be, oh, by the way, so here's the thing, is that when you notice your your your saboteur showing up, the best way to respond is to acknowledge and validate that showing up. Yep. I see you. I hear you, avoider.

00;21;39;26 - 00;21;56;21
Speaker 2
It makes sense why you're here. And so then you get to reframe this, then you get to start to understand what would the different perspective look like if I were to not have this view? How do I debunk the theory of the lie that it's trying to tell me? Right, right. So my question.

00;21;56;28 - 00;21;58;22
Speaker 1
It. Yes, we can claim it.

00;21;58;25 - 00;22;03;10
Speaker 2
Here it is. Hey, avoider. Nice to see you. I know why you're here.

00;22;03;23 - 00;22;05;00
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;22;05;00 - 00;22;17;15
Speaker 2
So if you were to think, Wendy, of what's your number one empowering question to debunk that avoider, what would that be?

00;22;17;15 - 00;22;29;22
Speaker 1
Yeah, and this I think this is where, you know, I love having coaches like you in my life, Karen, because I'm like, I don't know. Karen, what would your question be? Right.

00;22;29;22 - 00;22;30;22
Speaker 2
Because obviously we.

00;22;30;27 - 00;22;47;08
Speaker 1
Live in in my exactly when I'm living in my own staff and that's pretty high for me. It's it's coming. It's that fear based. It's the fear talking. And that's what holds me back to even be able to come up with the question to ask myself. And this is what I do for a living. Yeah.

00;22;47;09 - 00;22;48;00
Speaker 2
So yes.

00;22;48;07 - 00;22;48;16
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;22;49;04 - 00;23;17;09
Speaker 2
Well, this again, just full transparency here is they don't go away. It's just us being able to control them without them controlling us. Right. So, Lynn, let me bring you in. Scott, let's let me ask you, how do we support Wendy to think of what is an empowering question? Because you and I don't have this issue, we hit straight on confrontation because we see it as being constructive.

00;23;17;23 - 00;23;19;20
Speaker 2
Right. How true is that for you?

00;23;21;12 - 00;23;51;25
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think for me, when I when I have voided things, it's almost like I put the situations in a backpack on my back and it would just get heavier and heavier and heavier. And, you know, it's interesting to to think about like where that came from because harmony was a really important in our household. Right. Harmony, you know, my son's listening right here and he's probably like, Yeah, we had a lot of artificial harmony in our house too, right?

00;23;52;13 - 00;24;12;16
Speaker 3
So how do we keep that artificial harmony in artificial harmony for me was I just avoid it, but I didn't avoid it. All I did was pick it up, put it in his backpack, and then my life and everything became really heavy. And I own things I should have never owned. I put things in that backpack I should have never owned.

00;24;13;01 - 00;24;13;22
Speaker 3
So that makes sense.

00;24;13;22 - 00;24;47;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll get to that. Please. Are there too, and maybe a little bit of the stickler in there, too, but they're still carrying some rocks in your backpack, I'm sure. So what I heard you say is heavy, right? And what was the word? Harmony. So there's an irony to this, right? There's no harmony when you're not able to have communication in order to create a resolution.

00;24;47;02 - 00;24;53;17
Speaker 2
There's no harmony in that, ironically. Right.

00;24;53;17 - 00;25;21;17
Speaker 3
And you guys are really good about this, because when I hear you talk, the word I hear is the assumptions. And I love the fact that assumptions start with asset because every time I try that, I make a set of myself and other people and you guys are really good around like even the, you know, the whole energy platform and how I bring that to life and myself and others.

00;25;21;17 - 00;25;29;26
Speaker 3
And my gut tells me that if I'm operating at a really high level that I don't I don't have the ability for the luxury to make assumptions that.

00;25;30;08 - 00;25;31;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, because you're always curious.

00;25;31;28 - 00;25;33;12
Speaker 3
Right? Exactly. Yeah.

00;25;34;07 - 00;26;12;07
Speaker 1
You know what comes up for me as I'm hearing you talk? I really think the question is, what am I really avoiding? Right. Whenever I'm facing something and then I know myself well enough, this when I allow myself to step back to say, okay, I'm avoiding something, it's I think it's just simply to get myself to a place of facing it is just asking myself that question, what am I really avoiding?

00;26;12;07 - 00;26;13;19
Speaker 1
I know that's what comes up for me.

00;26;13;19 - 00;26;49;13
Speaker 2
I love that. And so when you could answer that, let's take that out to the Nth Degree. Right. It's recognize the fear, because if you were to answer that, you know that whatever the thought is, the answer is going to be to protect myself. And so if there were no fear, if it were only ever always constructed, if it were only ever always an opportunity to learn and grow, why would you avoid that?

00;26;49;13 - 00;26;54;05
Speaker 1
It changes perspective, right? Right. By asking, asking yourself those things.

00;26;54;23 - 00;27;18;12
Speaker 2
So acknowledging and validating and then really being super curious with that, with that avoider and then being able to see, hey, there's nothing to avoid. I don't need to fear this. It doesn't have to be conflictual or confrontational. It's only ever always learning. It's only ever always an opportunity to be constructive and creative. Yeah. So that's that reframe, right?

00;27;18;12 - 00;27;27;08
Speaker 2
But building that muscle takes a little bit of practice. A lot of practice. Yeah. But awareness again that's, that's where it starts, right?

00;27;27;22 - 00;27;30;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I love that phrase. Thanks. Thanks, Karen. That's great.

00;27;31;14 - 00;27;34;17
Speaker 2
So what's next about controller?

00;27;35;05 - 00;27;40;18
Speaker 3
Oh, hey, I think I get to watch Wendy. Coach Karen Oh.

00;27;40;19 - 00;27;41;18
Speaker 2
Yes, you do.

00;27;41;20 - 00;27;42;07
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;27;42;12 - 00;27;47;10
Speaker 2
So this is my third place saboteur.

00;27;47;10 - 00;27;50;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you only the kind of dove into what that is.

00;27;51;00 - 00;27;57;22
Speaker 2
Absolutely. What are the justification lies that I'm giving myself on as well?

00;27;57;23 - 00;28;10;28
Speaker 1
Well, first of all, the controller really is that anxiety based need to take charge and control of situations and people's actions right to our own will.

00;28;11;17 - 00;28;11;26
Speaker 3
Oh.

00;28;12;05 - 00;28;27;06
Speaker 1
And again, I know icky. It all feels so icky when we talk about it. It's that high anxiety and then the impatience when that is not possible, when you're not possible, when it's not possible to control, it's that. Yes, yes.

00;28;27;23 - 00;28;28;12
Speaker 2
I know. Well.

00;28;28;23 - 00;28;56;13
Speaker 1
The justification lies around this one is, you know, hey, without the control, you can't get much done. Right. And then you we need to push people when that controller is really loud. And then the lie that if I don't control, I will be controlled and I can't live with that huge. And then I'm trying to get the job done for all of our sakes.

00;28;56;13 - 00;28;59;17
Speaker 2
Oh, yes. Let me go throw up real quick.

00;28;59;23 - 00;29;00;04
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;29;01;24 - 00;29;37;13
Speaker 2
This is a really hard thing for me to look at myself in the mirror every day and say, holy cow, but let me let me help myself. Let me be a little bit gracious here in terms of, again, going back to awareness, what's changed for me after being able to see that this is how I was showing up, I was able to to ask those empowering questions.

00;29;37;13 - 00;29;58;17
Speaker 2
Right. And and and give myself a little bit more of that compassion and say, I don't you know, how much of this really is me needing to take over her? I think the biggest thing was how am I enabling others from not learning and growing because of my need to get the job done the way I liked it?

00;30;00;21 - 00;30;10;14
Speaker 2
And in that right there alone was was eye opening to recognize the importance of empowering others instead of enabling them.

00;30;11;11 - 00;30;33;19
Speaker 1
And it's and this is a big deal. You know, you and I obviously work with each other on a regular basis. Karen Right. And it is a big deal because the saboteurs, any of the saboteurs can be very painful for us. But just since we're talking about this one with you personally, you know, I can see how painful it is sometimes for you to let go of that, because there are other saboteurs that are also.

00;30;33;19 - 00;30;35;00
Speaker 2
Yes, it gets them.

00;30;35;00 - 00;30;57;21
Speaker 1
To get to those, too, and at the same time, the freedom there is. So I of course, I love the fact that you can ask yourself those questions. But just I'm curious, you talking too about when you allow yourself to ask those questions, what is the freedom that you experience in that.

00;30;58;07 - 00;31;26;14
Speaker 2
Oh, well, yeah. Well, let's say, you know, as a leader, it frees up my time, right? This is one of the big issues that we as leaders have in terms of time management and work life balance. And where am I not delegating? Where am I not prioritizing? So the more I can see where there's a benefit to delegate, let someone else learn, let someone else grow.

00;31;26;14 - 00;31;27;16
Speaker 2
That frees up my time.

00;31;28;01 - 00;31;55;24
Speaker 1
You used the example and we were talking about something completely different. But this is where the controller comes in of your girls too. Right? And taking a different approach with them versus feeling that holding on to the control. And so you've also experienced the okay, what happens when I try to come from that command, a control or control controlling aspect versus the empowering and letting go?

00;31;56;04 - 00;31;56;27
Speaker 3
Mm hmm.

00;31;57;00 - 00;32;19;12
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. So it's almost, you know, let's go back to the empowering question model. Right. The more that we can allow them to do the critical thinking, I don't have to be the decision maker. I don't have to be the one leading the forge. Right? Mm hmm. Now, sometimes with someone, you know, somebody has to take control sometimes.

00;32;19;12 - 00;32;55;06
Speaker 2
Yes. That's just the way it is. But, yeah. What would it look like for those of US controllers to utilize the strength of the empowering question? That's that's the game changer right there. So it looks like set the table, get ready for bed, get your backpack on and let's get to school. Go out and get the bus. You know, whatever that is, it's very directive, very controlling, rather than saying, what do we need to do to get dinner on the table?

00;32;56;03 - 00;33;16;07
Speaker 2
What do you need to do to get ready for bed? What needs to happen before we get to school? Right. And allow them to engineer their own path? Those are their consequences, too, right? If they forget something, instead of me saying, make sure you get your bookbag, make sure you get your lunch, make sure you do this. Make sure you do that.

00;33;16;25 - 00;33;21;13
Speaker 2
Make sure you brush your teeth. Well, you know what? What needs to happen? Will they get to figure that out now?

00;33;21;24 - 00;33;24;20
Speaker 1
And how much how much lighter are your shoulders? Because. Yeah.

00;33;25;05 - 00;33;33;05
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Well, that was huge, I think to the minute that I recognized wow. Again, awareness I get to I get to choose differently now. Conscious choice.

00;33;33;29 - 00;33;40;25
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. Yeah. Scott, what comes up for you around this one?

00;33;40;25 - 00;33;59;17
Speaker 3
I think just that question around what needs to happen. I was just thinking about like, as my mom said, what needs to happen for you to get to school? I don't know. It sounds like you got a lot to do. Yeah, right. But I. I've never heard that question before. Like, that's really interesting.

00;34;00;16 - 00;34;12;13
Speaker 2
But look at us as parents and why we've needed to be the leader of that. Yeah. To control. Hey, Dad. With Taylor? Yes, I'm sure.

00;34;12;22 - 00;34;36;27
Speaker 3
Yeah, because part of me was thinking, too. It's like I took this assessment, and those were my beliefs. It'd be really interesting to have, like, Lori or even Taylor take that assessment from my from his point of view. And would they be similar? Would they be different is fascinating. Controlling maybe didn't show up very high but I would I'm just guessing, right?

00;34;37;01 - 00;34;57;06
Speaker 3
I'm guessing that maybe it might be higher with other people. And for me, historically, that's all been around my ego and pride, which is something like when you talked about from the very beginning, the fact that I just had low self-worth and control gave me the ability and it may be build a false self. Does that make sense?

00;34;57;06 - 00;35;20;03
Speaker 1
Absolutely Yeah. And to your point, Scott, you know, even though that might be not be your highest, just like it's it's the lowest as of right now, it's the low sum. That doesn't mean it doesn't show up for me. Trust me, it shows up for me. And so it's just paying attention to how is it showing up? And I was holding his back.

00;35;20;08 - 00;35;43;09
Speaker 1
And I just feel like I need to add to this too, because I have a lot of leaders who I work with. Bring this up. We when we see these because it can feel so icky when we're going through this naturally as humans, we then say, well, I mean, but isn't it a good thing that as a leader I'm, X, Y, Z and and so of course there's a gift in all of these things.

00;35;43;25 - 00;36;05;10
Speaker 1
But the whole point of looking at the saboteurs is, again, how is it sabotaging us being the best version of ourselves and how is it holding us back? Not what is the gift in it? And so I would just challenge everybody listening to this, sometimes it's really easy to to recognize it and say, oh, yeah, I see that and feel that.

00;36;05;21 - 00;36;22;19
Speaker 1
And other times were like, No way, that's not me. I never do that. But when we step back and really allow ourselves and I've said this before, have that out-of-body experience and watch how we show up, that's when we're like and Scott would say, ouch, yeah. Right.

00;36;23;04 - 00;36;24;04
Speaker 3
Right. Yeah.

00;36;24;21 - 00;36;54;25
Speaker 2
So and to that point, the idea that so oftentimes those justification lies, right? So we we say, well, this is how I got here, right? This is why I am who I am. And that's a good thing. Yeah. Until it's not. And then right. Right. Until we recognize like Scott, like you said, like you had no idea that your ego was leading your way because you just justified being able to show up that way.

00;36;55;13 - 00;36;59;20
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Yeah. So do we have time for another one?

00;36;59;26 - 00;37;08;05
Speaker 1
Let's. Yeah, let's go through. Let's go through one more. And so that would be. How about hyper achiever? Hyper achiever?

00;37;08;16 - 00;37;37;26
Speaker 2
So this actually this actually is a good segue way because what we were just talking about is that I find most my clients with hyper achiever really having the most the loudest justification in life. Right, because they're where they are because of their hyper achiever. It's what pushes us to the outcome. It it's the performance based mindset. It's all about what we, you know, get to achieve, what we get to.

00;37;38;02 - 00;37;57;11
Speaker 2
You know, it's that list. At the end of the day, you've checked off those things on your, you know, on your list and you feel good about it, or it's that list at the end of the day that you've gotten nothing done and you're really annoyed with yourself. It's the same hyper achiever that we're feeding and the justification lies of why we're not good enough.

00;37;58;13 - 00;38;20;21
Speaker 2
We're only good or bad. Either we do or we don't. It's black or white. We don't achieve it or we do achieve it. There's no. So I like to say, let's draw a line in the sand. Okay? Let's look at everything on the one side of that line. That is the outcome. It's the goals. It's the objective. It's the it's the performance.

00;38;21;05 - 00;38;47;29
Speaker 2
It's what happens when we show up good enough. Right? This is, again, justification lie. But let's, let's, let's go back to the other side of that line in the sand and recognize that we were good enough before we even foot in the morning. We were good enough before we even made need to have an achievement or an accomplishment or something to achieve.

00;38;48;18 - 00;39;09;00
Speaker 2
So it's not like we're going to abandon the goal or abandon the achievement, but in order to actually show up here and now we have to detach from that well enough and reframe what is my purpose? Being purpose led, being passionate, you know, being passionate about what we're doing, what are the resources that we need here and now.

00;39;09;28 - 00;39;20;21
Speaker 2
That's what allows us to reach to the full potential, because the more we're pushing toward the outcome, we're getting burned out. Right. Is your where's your hyper achiever in here?

00;39;20;21 - 00;39;25;25
Speaker 3
Scott I think it's pretty low, but I also think that.

00;39;25;26 - 00;39;26;26
Speaker 1
This is it's for.

00;39;26;26 - 00;39;28;20
Speaker 2
It's it's your performance of yours.

00;39;28;20 - 00;39;33;06
Speaker 1
Wendy No. All right. Mine is like towards the bottom. Scott says, okay.

00;39;34;22 - 00;39;35;26
Speaker 3
Five, six.

00;39;35;26 - 00;39;36;16
Speaker 2
Okay, six.

00;39;36;22 - 00;39;44;07
Speaker 3
Am I looking at that? Right. Rest was number one stickler pleaser. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, you're right.

00;39;44;12 - 00;39;45;22
Speaker 2
My party room is up there.

00;39;45;22 - 00;39;49;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, I just see of my achievement. I'm sorry. There is no.

00;39;49;24 - 00;39;51;07
Speaker 1
Failing. There is no failing.

00;39;51;07 - 00;39;52;04
Speaker 3
Scott Okay.

00;39;53;05 - 00;40;07;29
Speaker 2
So what comes up for you whenever we talk about, you know, the visual, the line in the sand, this is what's gotten you where you are. Yeah. It's really hard for you to get rid of the idea of being an achiever.

00;40;07;29 - 00;40;31;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, I can't. You know, if. If I have something on my list to do, I can't let it just sit there in my mind. I have to start. It doesn't have to be finished, but I have to start it. And I can't like I can't even like on the weekends I can't do anything until the yards cut, right?

00;40;31;25 - 00;40;49;25
Speaker 3
Everything's like the leaf blowers out. And everything I need to do in my house is like taken care of before I can relax. So I give myself this list of things that I need to do in order to grab some sense of peace or a gift for me. Does that make sense? Yeah.

00;40;49;27 - 00;40;56;24
Speaker 1
Scott, can I jump in here real quick? To me, that sounds like you're restless, which we'll talk about, which.

00;40;56;24 - 00;40;58;04
Speaker 2
Is I hear a lot of stickler in their.

00;40;58;04 - 00;40;58;25
Speaker 1
Top one.

00;40;59;03 - 00;41;00;06
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.

00;41;00;26 - 00;41;19;29
Speaker 1
So let me just this might be helpful let me tell you what some of the justification lies are the hyper achiever. And I think that's going to help you connect. Scott with oh yeah, that's how I see it showing up all of these not resonate with you, but so one is, you know, life is about achieving and producing results.

00;41;21;11 - 00;41;37;05
Speaker 1
Another is portraying good image helps me to achieve results. And then, you know, another would be feelings are just a distraction and don't help anything. So when I say those things, what comes up for you?

00;41;37;05 - 00;41;48;08
Speaker 3
Probably the third one. Not for sure. The second one probably very. Although I don't want to admit it, that I do believe the second one probably speaks the loudest to me. Mm hmm.

00;41;48;21 - 00;41;51;05
Speaker 2
Yeah. The image, right? Mm.

00;41;52;05 - 00;42;03;12
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, and at the same time, I know you well enough to know that that has quieted some in comparison to what that was. Right. You know, years ago.

00;42;04;28 - 00;42;06;11
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;42;06;11 - 00;42;13;21
Speaker 2
It's crazy how only in our thirties we become aware of ourselves, right? Maybe forties, I don't know.

00;42;13;26 - 00;42;15;09
Speaker 1
Anyway, higher.

00;42;15;09 - 00;42;15;13
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;42;15;17 - 00;42;21;03
Speaker 3
Right, maybe. Maybe a double that.

00;42;21;03 - 00;42;30;04
Speaker 2
Well, hey, if this is what we're here for, hopefully we're perpetuating more awareness with listeners today. Right?

00;42;30;04 - 00;42;50;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then maybe, maybe just Karen, you know, thinking about the hyper achiever sometimes I think talking about the thoughts that the hyper achiever has. And you've said some of these, but you know, the thought that I must be the best at what I do. And if I can't be outstanding, why bother?

00;42;50;21 - 00;42;51;04
Speaker 3
Mm hmm.

00;42;51;08 - 00;43;08;14
Speaker 1
And we focus on when we're in that hyper allow the hyper achiever mode to get in it. We focus on thinking and action versus getting in touch with our feelings. And then you're worthy as long as you're successful and others think well of you.

00;43;09;11 - 00;43;10;20
Speaker 2
Which is such a lie.

00;43;11;02 - 00;43;24;13
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. Hey, I got a question for you. Yeah. Are the the hyper achiever and the controller, are they normally close together?

00;43;24;22 - 00;43;27;23
Speaker 2
They can be. And that's a shitstorm of.

00;43;29;01 - 00;43;30;10
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;43;30;10 - 00;43;49;09
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because I'm hearing a lot of stickler in this too. So yeah, it really can be, you know, needing to be perfect, needing to have the outcome, needing to be to demonstrate my worth based on how perfect I show up and how much I am able to accomplish. Right. And yes, controller can be there too, because you've got to be the one to control it.

00;43;49;09 - 00;43;49;21
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;43;50;13 - 00;43;50;23
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;43;52;04 - 00;44;11;29
Speaker 3
My dad said something to me growing up and then if I was going to ask Taylor a question, I would ask him the same question. But he he told me when he grew up, he said, you know, all I wanted to do, my sons, all they want to do is outperform your father's. Does that does that make sense to me?

00;44;12;02 - 00;44;16;20
Speaker 2
100%. But I think that's common for all of us. Right? Right. Yeah.

00;44;16;20 - 00;44;44;03
Speaker 3
But I don't think I ever had that. I just I don't know. My dad was very successful, but I don't I don't know. I don't think that was that. I, I never felt like that was the reason for it. I think, you know, for for me, it's I felt so low about who I was that if you if I didn't like myself, I was going to convince you that that you liked me.

00;44;44;09 - 00;44;45;06
Speaker 3
That that makes sense.

00;44;45;06 - 00;44;47;12
Speaker 2
Yes. Peer pleaser. Yeah. Yeah.

00;44;50;03 - 00;45;06;26
Speaker 2
I had a thought a second ago and now it's gone. But it goes back to the idea of what did you say with your dad? And the idea of, I don't know, whatever. Keep going. It'll it'll come back if it's important. Otherwise a lie.

00;45;07;29 - 00;45;29;21
Speaker 1
Or is this just a lie? But I think what's amazing to me, and this is what we're all talking about, how these are all like we, you know, the restless, you know, just like what we're hearing with you, Scott, you know, we're talking about the controller and then or the hyper achiever. And as you're as you're talking, Karen and I are also hearing the Russells and the sticklers show up.

00;45;29;21 - 00;45;39;04
Speaker 1
So it's not like we have one show up all the time. It's like one might be louder than the others, but the other little saboteur accomplices all come in to try to help their friend, right? Yeah.

00;45;39;05 - 00;46;02;11
Speaker 2
My visual of this is, you know how when you go to some of the big cities and you have those bicycle, all things that everybody, like ten of you and your best friends all get on and you bike from bar to bar the Segway, is that what it's called? Oh, I think so. A Segway is the manpower. This is the bike where you get like ten of your friends on and pedal to.

00;46;02;11 - 00;46;02;19
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;46;03;07 - 00;46;07;29
Speaker 2
To a bar. Right. So you take one vehicle that all ten of you or whatever. Totally.

00;46;08;05 - 00;46;08;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;46;08;17 - 00;46;27;04
Speaker 2
So me and all my saboteurs, the visual here is that my saboteurs are all pedaling. I am hogtied, dragging behind them. I'm paying for all their beers. I'm the one putting them in the seats and I'm the one that could actually stop the nonsense as well.

00;46;27;11 - 00;46;28;22
Speaker 1
That's a powerful visual.

00;46;28;22 - 00;46;49;04
Speaker 2
Karen Yeah, well, sometimes they're tandem bikes where it's like just the top two or whatever and they're one's the copilot or, you know, the shotgun, whatever. And, and, you know, when they're showing up, that's the key. The awareness is the key. And we get to talk about what happens when we can build that sense of awareness and quiet them.

00;46;49;04 - 00;47;00;11
Speaker 2
But we're not quite there yet because we definitely want to go through more of these, especially in and being able to debrief them here together, because this is this is the fun part.

00;47;01;07 - 00;47;31;22
Speaker 3
It's interesting. Know, I think what's interesting about like even the hyper achiever and I think acknowledging the impact on that would be not only the impact on ourselves, but more importantly probably the impact on other people. And as I'm hearing this, I'm hearing stories from my past around people saying and they didn't think I heard it like saying things like, don't even try because you won't like it, right?

00;47;31;22 - 00;47;53;20
Speaker 3
Or just give it time and that noise will die or things like that. You're never going to meet his expectations. So don't even like don't even if you're going to take a step, don't spend a lot of time on it because he's going to change it. Like all of all of the words that maybe I wasn't paying attention to.

00;47;53;20 - 00;48;00;25
Speaker 3
But there is like nonverbal cues, there is delay, there was like all of those things and academics sense.

00;48;01;03 - 00;48;21;08
Speaker 1
It's a huge impact. Scott What you're describing is very much the impact that the hyper achiever can have on other people. And I know the way Shirzad describes it too, is like, you know, other others can get caught up in that performance or the vortex of that of us, right? And then and then they might feel like they have to do the same.

00;48;21;28 - 00;48;41;19
Speaker 1
And as leaders, how many times have we either worked for a leader or been that leader? You know, where we see the impact of that, where, well, they may say that I don't need to work on the weekends or, you know, what have you, but they're doing it. So certainly it must mean that really they want me to.

00;48;41;19 - 00;48;45;14
Speaker 1
So that vortex hyper achiever vortexes.

00;48;46;12 - 00;48;49;13
Speaker 3
Yeah, the vortex I like that.

00;48;49;13 - 00;48;50;16
Speaker 1
Of the hyper achiever.

00;48;50;17 - 00;48;51;09
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;48;51;20 - 00;49;16;07
Speaker 1
So maybe this is a good time for us to wrap this up. And we have other saboteurs to talk about and we'll jump into that in our next podcast. And the one thing that's coming up that I want to be able to share with everyone, because so often, Karen, I do this work and people get their results and that and us included when we first did this too.

00;49;16;07 - 00;49;49;17
Speaker 1
But it's like, okay, great. Now what, you know, how do I fix this? And, and like Karen said, like, we're not there yet. And, and there is something to be said about sitting in the uncomfortable, uncomfortable, right. The discomfort sitting in that and giving you the opportunity to just observe. Right now, the work is the awareness and the observation of how these things are showing up for you and how they might have an impact on other people.

00;49;50;03 - 00;50;05;11
Speaker 1
So we we're going to leave you hanging. And, but, you know, in our next podcast or the one after, we will be sharing more about how you acquired that and so forth. So Karen, what else comes up for you around this as we wrap up now?

00;50;05;11 - 00;50;39;06
Speaker 2
I love that. I think that that's really critical piece here is that, you know, it can be very disturbing to see yourself in this light. And I'm going to use Wendy's words. How can you give yourself the space and grace to just be aware, right? Just oh, notice, observe. Oh, yeah, it makes sense. And that the space, the time that it takes to acknowledge and validate the grace is the curiosity that you need to be like, Oh, wonder, why would I to do with this now?

00;50;39;16 - 00;51;02;23
Speaker 2
Right? And so we will give you tools on how to quiet and how to come from a sage perspective in future episodes. But right now, just give yourself space and grace to accept that this is who you are. And it does not mean that you're you're a bad person. It doesn't mean that you're dysfunctional or it just means this is this is why.

00;51;04;04 - 00;51;11;02
Speaker 2
And now you have information and data on being able to know. You get to come at conscious choice.

00;51;11;07 - 00;51;14;28
Speaker 1
I love that Scott and he parting words.

00;51;16;14 - 00;51;37;24
Speaker 3
I just wrote down. One is one of the questions that you asked, which I really have never heard this question asked. Maybe I have, but I wasn't paying attention. But what needs to happen for you to access and then when do you remember? Like even during the glass around the social connection? Yeah. We ask questions like, Are you ready for school?

00;51;37;24 - 00;51;59;07
Speaker 3
That's pretty simple. Yes or no, right? But that social connection and allows people to think differently and they have to come up with their own conclusions. And it it kind of I want to say it, it turns off their tape recorder of their automatic response, and it pauses. And then they have to think differently, which is where that connection really comes alive.

00;51;59;07 - 00;52;13;25
Speaker 3
So really like that. And then secondly, you said something that I wrote down that really like says where fear lives, there's no truth and or truth is there's no fear. And I have the ability to be fearless. And I just I just appreciate you sharing that.

00;52;14;02 - 00;52;17;18
Speaker 2
They dance together for darn sure. And, well, yeah.

00;52;17;23 - 00;52;18;28
Speaker 3
They're not very good dancer.

00;52;18;29 - 00;52;46;09
Speaker 2
They're they they they do. You can't, you know, you there's dark and light and that's the whole point. Right. And that this is where the more you can build that awareness of the fear, not avoiding the fear. Right. Walking across those fiery coals on the other side is fearlessness. Most of the fear is standing there looking at the fiery coals.

00;52;46;09 - 00;52;50;25
Speaker 3
Mm hmm. Well, I'm learning a lot, and I'm grateful for both of you guys.

00;52;51;02 - 00;52;54;18
Speaker 2
We're excited. So, Wendy, take us. Go with it. And what would you.

00;52;54;18 - 00;52;55;16
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah.

00;52;55;16 - 00;53;21;19
Speaker 1
So I think I think the the call to action. And if we ask you to go inside, it's just do what we've mentioned, you know, just give yourself the space and grace to allow yourself to pay attention to how are these saboteurs showing up in your life? And again, from the perspective of how they're holding you or others back and just allow yourself to to sit in it and observe that.

00;53;21;19 - 00;53;40;02
Speaker 1
And that's enough. Again, awareness is key and then the action will come later. But we're not there yet. So thanks for being a part of this journey with us, because all of us are in this with you as well. And we'll see you next time.

00;53;40;10 - 00;53;43;01
Speaker 2
Positive intelligence outcome. Yeah.